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Post by Pop goes the world on May 3, 2008 3:40:00 GMT -6
Does anybody know what the deal is with Games Workshop? I know there sales have been down significantly in the last few years, but alot of little stuff seems particularly weird lately. The big thing is that they stopped offering bitz for individual order (as they were "restructuring" their warehouses, apparently), and now I noticed they are kind of doing away with blisters for many items. I ordered some blood knight cavalry models to fill out my unit, and they all came in generic little baggies. I also noticed some mylar-type baggies hanging at their St. Charles store with older minis in them. Just weird and different than usual. Also, with my recent collection of Vampire Counts, I got a few positive mispacks, with extra parts in them (Half a metal horse and an extra scenic base from one of the new Vampires on foot). I have been playing and buying GW shit for going on 20 years, and I think I could count my previous mispacks with them on one hand. To get two with just the small amount of stuff I recently bought is downright strange. I just looked at their stock history for the past few years... investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/historical.asp?symbol=GAW.L fand goddamn things are looking abysmal. I guess last May GW closed some 35 stores and laid off a ton of people (that about coincides with their bits service disappearing). I heard they sold off Black Library and a few other subsidiaries recently... So what is the deal? Ig GW in it's death throes? Should I bother pursuing a hobby with them, or are they done? Has the subversion of bitter gamers like myself really done that much harm? |
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Post by Andrew on May 3, 2008 9:12:17 GMT -6
Potentially. Also you have to include the actual games. 40K has had some really bs writing lately. Codex Chaos Space Marines was an entirely flubbed affair that they even apologized for, not to mention the problems contained within. Rules are a mess, balance is flying away. It's like they're not even playtesting any more.
Doesn't help that the new CEO is the previous head of sales guy. Hence why my daemons got washed out of CSM with a fire hose and put into their own book. Hey, check out the fantasy daemons spearhead at OBG. It is the picture from the 40k one, minus the Soulgrinder. They didn't even change the models from round bases to square bases, even though they have painted examples of both. Even better, the sticker says that it includes Codex: Chaos Daemons. Not Daemons of Chaos Army Book. They entirely cheaped out to save money and hopefully rebuild something. Even worse, is these new spearheads don't save you money anymore. When I bought the CSM spearhead, I think I saved almost $70, whereas the 40k daemon box saves you nothing and only includes new models.
Apocalypse was all a big marketing tool as well; it was all about money. Of course we the gamers did save some by buying in bulk. But only some. It worked to a degree, but not a very big one.
GW is definitely having troubles. Their stock has returned to about the low it was at around 2002, after which they had a nice high for a little while. So I don't think they'll die out; just cut back, push the popular, and hope for the best.
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Post by Pop goes the world on May 3, 2008 11:14:39 GMT -6
There are a few differences between 2002 and now, however. The reason GW picked up after 2002 was because of their licensing of the Lord of the Rings miniatures, and they don't have the popularity of the movies to boost their sales anymore. Plus, GW had a corner on the market in 2002. Since then, collectible miniatures games have gathered up a huge part of their demographic. Plus, the popularity of Privateer Press amongst hardcore gamers has to have hurt them in a big way.
Who is GW's target demographic anymore? Their rules, fluff, and gaming atmosphere is targeting the male child and tween crowd, but they are pumping out things like Apocalypse which involve the investment of HUNDREDS of dollars... I'm not sure they have any idea who they are making these games for anymore. Their sales certainly won't justify having all their little chain stores open for long, and their unpleasant nature as a company has made their availability outside of their own stores scarce. Stores like Gamers Paradise stopped carrying their stuff (though they still have them on their Store locators...), and I know the gaming store down at ISU only carries Privateer stuff now. While GW has been ostracizing independent and online retailers, Privateer has been catering to them.
Things are looking pretty shitty for GW. Well, 25 years is a pretty good run, I suppose.
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on May 3, 2008 13:37:21 GMT -6
I went into GW today and it was packed...sadly with teenage males who dont seem to shower on a regular basis. I think as long as they can continue to draw in the outcast male children from ages 9-17 they will stay afloat the only problem with that is that it leaves people like us (meaning semi-normal adults) without an outlet. GW caters to the children so we lose out. We cant step foot into a GW and actually play because of the non-adult atmosphere (not showering and screaming are things that I consider childish to an extent, especially the showering thing...do it daily people almost all adults do)
Thats why you should support your independent retailers that do sell GW stuff such as OBG! or Hobbytown USA.
I personally dont think GW will fold.
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Post by Leudast1215 on May 3, 2008 15:52:21 GMT -6
No idea as to whether or not GW will fold, but if what I've been hearing from other sources is true they're, to say the least, having some serious management issues that frankly there is no excuse for. I guess they panicked when sales started to drop and target the tweens in an effort to get to their mother's wallets, but that leaves out the college crowd and fair number of older guys who actually have the money to spend. I too was disappointed by the lack of bits service as it hinders any attempt of mine to build a Kroot Mercenary Army. Oh well, guess my money would be better invested in a Privateer Press game like Hordes or Warmachine, but it's so hard to choose between the two all the minis are nice looking  . |
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Post by modius13 on May 3, 2008 22:05:18 GMT -6
Speaking of bad writing in a sort of round about kinda way... I'm taking technical writing in the fall and the final project is to take an instruction manual of some sort and rewrite it so that it works better. I was thinking of doing the 40K rulebook for shits and giggles.
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Post by Leudast1215 on May 3, 2008 22:10:17 GMT -6
That's actually not a bad idea... But if I were going to use that for an academic project I would probably focus in on the special rules and the ambiguity with regards to how they interact with each other due to bad writing. Otherwise the 40K rules are pretty simple and straight forward. Btw I would agree upon reading the new Chaos codex that they could've done a better job as far as fan-service, fluff, interesting army lists go... That's really strange though cause the Ork codex released around the same time is really, really well done save for some typos.
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Post by Andrew on May 4, 2008 7:39:45 GMT -6
Interesting...my final project for Technical Writing this semester was to make a recommendation report. But hey, it should work.
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Post by bloodangellh on May 5, 2008 3:30:10 GMT -6
I don't think the new Chaos Marine dex was a failed effort. It made me finally start a chaos army because I looked at it and said, "this seems like a well balanced list now...minus lash..." They said it was to be basically a renegade marine book, not a cult list book, so they succeeded there...it's just not what some people were hoping for.
I don't mind the splitting of the chaos forces as the way the last dex was used by many players, it felt less like chaos space marines with demon support, and more like "we take marines as filler for our demon bomb."
Personally, I think the codexes have gotten much better over time. I love my Ork dex and my Blood Angels dex.
As for their bitz services, I've heard a few things. Supposedly when they originally came up with the infrastructure for the service, they never imagined the volume they would be doing today. It just became too unwieldy and a chore to offer bitz. But I do agree with you Adam, it is very strange and a terrible move as being able to get individual bitz for conversions is, I think, a core aspect of this game. They have been selling "bitz packs" on their website, but hopefully this is a "just to get by" move as most people want specific pieces and not whole sets. I've heard that they are trying to eventually get everything into a connected and automated state with ordering machines/kiosks at every store.
As for what's going on with GW as a company, I think they've finally hit critical mass. I've heard a lot of people say things are getting bad right now because of the demographic they're targeting, but you have to remember, they've been doing that for almost a decade now and they were doing it when the company stock was hitting unbelievable highs just a couple years ago. My only thought is that as a whole, the tween market is very unstable and hard to maintain. To tweens, GW products could have been seen as just another fad who's luster is now wearing off.
If you look at their financial reports for last year, they lost money in the North American and continental European markets...and that's where they had the most store closings. They only closed stores that were not making a profit. They actually opened stores in the UK (which somehow continues to grow, albeit slowly) and the still relatively untapped South-east Asian markets.
If my theory about the tween outlook on GW as a fad is correct, the the closing of stores in North America makes perfect sense. veterans are the ones that will stay with GW's products i the long run, and many of them (you guys/gals can attest to this) prefer independent retailers to GW stores. In the UK, there are very very few independet retailers as they see it as futile to try and compete with GW stores in selling GW products when a GW store is within reasonable driving distance of anyone on the Isles. And if tweens are leaving the game, GW's profits will certainly continue to drop until they hit a sustainable point. I mean, come on, who among us actually buys our stuff through GW? It's always online retailer who offer a discount, local independent retailers, Ebay, or through people you personally know.
Eh...sorry I got a bit long-winded.
Asia out.
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Post by Leudast1215 on May 6, 2008 18:32:40 GMT -6
You do raise a valid point I would never go out of my way as a consumer, hobbyist and gamer to a GW shop to buy stuff. I'd much rather scrounge up an online credit card and go to an online retailer that offers discounts or ideally pay On Board Games (ideally with said discount for a bulk purchase) because John and staff cater to their customers and as long as they do that they're worthy of my $, not GW. So GW either needs to just bite the bullet and close all their shops or increase the quality of service/gaming enviornment. Marketing to adults and not tweens would go a long way in achieving this, or at least creating a gaming enviornment where older gamers are encouraged to mentor the tween market to make them into better players/persons in the hobby. This philosophy is actually why I go out of my way to bail out Talon with $, food or a ride home occasionally because if I were a tween surrounded by 20 something year olds I'd look up to them in one way or another and expect them to look out for me. The tween demographic can't possibly be expected to mature as gamers/hobbyists if the more mature demographic doesn't lead by example.
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Post by heatseeker on May 6, 2008 19:33:58 GMT -6
I also noticed they were getting pretty weird lately with all the news I was hearing about store closings, profit loss, no more bit selling, etc. I also agree that they only focus on the dumb kids for profit as a fad and long-term fanbase. If things go the way they are going and GW is shutdown, I would still play the game, but for the time being I am not supporting the company financially in any sense. I buy all my stuff from Ebay as it is and also sold a ton of stuff which I oddly made profit off of. I hate the stores with a passion between the stinky kids and cacophonous sounds of "WAAAGGHHH" or "MY CHAPLAIN HAS A POWERFIST!" oh and the annoying ass car-salesman-type workers that will not leave you alone for the existence of your visit. There are also stinky adults that really seem like they do not have a social life besides gaming. I am sorry if this offends some, but it is sadly true where gaming at GW is concerned for the majority of its clientèle. I guess we will just have to wait and see if this really is the disintegration of GW.
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Post by Pop goes the world on May 6, 2008 21:46:38 GMT -6
Speaking of bad writing in a sort of round about kinda way... I'm taking technical writing in the fall and the final project is to take an instruction manual of some sort and rewrite it so that it works better. I was thinking of doing the 40K rulebook for shits and giggles. DEAR GOD, PLEASE DO THIS!!! Whenever I read GW rules (which are universally ambiguous) or GW fluff (Which is universally awful), I think, "With all the nerd brain power out there, couldn't they churn out some better stuff?" When it comes to rules, GW always leaves lots of room for argument. They don't specify when events "go off" in the turn sequence, how they bounce off other rules, etc. They just say "We're not going to figure it out or write better rules. Just roll for it." You look at Privateer and Magic, and their rules read like legal texts- they use specific language that is indisputable. If they DONT, they errata it to make sense. GW errata is just "Oops, we meant to put a 4 instead of a 5, my bad. The book was only in development for 2 years, and we didn't see a reason to read it over before we printed it." |
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Post by Pop goes the world on May 6, 2008 21:53:10 GMT -6
I hate the stores with a passion between the stinky kids and cacophonous sounds of "WAAAGGHHH" or "MY CHAPLAIN HAS A POWERFIST!" oh and the annoying ass car-salesman-type workers that will not leave you alone for the existence of your visit. My god, I almost came to fisticuffs with some fucker at the Fox Valley store recently... I made it EXPLICIT that I did not need or want help, I just wanted to be pointed at the Vampire Counts and left alone. He proceeded to talk to me constantly, about everything from my shirt to new miniatures and supplements for games I don't play, until during my checkout I seriously told him, "I really just want to leave at this point." He still took a good 5 minutes to finish ringing me up. i guess it is my fault for responding to him when he said stupid or wrong shit (like the Vampire Count boxed set came with enough parts to make them all regular troopers instead of command- it doesn't, I own it). The next week, I made the mistake of dropping into the store in Geneva during their god-awful 25th anniversary celebration. An employee in plastic children's halloween armor asked me in that chipper, manufactured way "Hey, what do you play? What did you come in for?" I just told him I did not need or want help, and that I would find what I needed on my own. There was also a guy in a cape. |
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on May 6, 2008 22:40:05 GMT -6
Oh man the classic GW adventure.
I went the one day and the guy was wearing a kilt...I mean come on...a kilt is funny in some situations but not as a serious garment. Also give your teenage patrons a break they are going to have a hard enough time getting laid with minaitures laying around their rooms but now they will be seen hanging out with a guy in a kilt at a local nerd store.
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Post by kernbanks on May 6, 2008 23:13:27 GMT -6
I'd have to say... the atmosphere difference between european / australian and american gamers is completely different. It's been a few years since i was in a US GW store, but you all have nailed it. the experience is repulsing... i remember the last was the shop in the Gurnee Mills outlet... to avoid crap shopping with my girlfriend i pit stopped. the cashier no shit would not stop staring... i laughed, which didn't make Carrie feel any better, so i said i'd kick his ass, but she just wanted to leave. as long as that is the face of gaming in the states, well you're not going to recruit regular people to become players.
where as... gaming in europe is almost mainstream. tabletop games sit right next to or replace board games in a lot of houses. it is just another thing to do with the family... namely because people don't get so overy zealous about it. the shops are clean and nice places to hang out and grap a cuppa (tea). I'm planning an October trip to Nottingham, before i move back i want to see what it is like to see a games shop with connected pub... i think the combination could be quiet nice. but it is one of those things you'll only see in europe where the drinking age is determined by the individuals ability to see over the bar... i don't think too many soccer mom's would drop off thier kids if the boys hanging out in the back were tossing back pints while throwing dice.
ciao
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on May 6, 2008 23:25:39 GMT -6
Yeah I like bringing girls into GW's just to make the people inside feel uncomfortable it is funny. I know its not right to pick on them but they make it so easy...
As soon as girlfriend left store i was swarmed by two workers who promptly asked:
"Is that your girlfriend?"
"yeah"
"WOOOOWWWW! and she supports you playing the hobby!!!"
This is actual conversation I was part of after my girlfriend entered the store with me and then left shortly after to do other shopping.
Thats why I like the independent shops more as they are usually not as bad.
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Post by bloodangellh on May 7, 2008 0:07:20 GMT -6
You look at Privateer and Magic, and their rules read like legal texts- they use specific language that is indisputable. If they DONT, they errata it to make sense. GW errata is just "Oops, we meant to put a 4 instead of a 5, my bad. The book was only in development for 2 years, and we didn't see a reason to read it over before we printed it." I have it on good authority that GW has FAQs ready to go...bad news is I don't believe they fix anything. Their only point is to put the old codexs in line with 5th edition. Adam, you're definitely right, Privateer Press' policy of quickly answering pressing rules questions and actually having their developers and writers post answers on their forums makes way too much sense as a model for GW to copy. Oh, that just made me remember something. Back when GW had forums, they had a few threads where developers and writers would answer questions. They would collect the answers and post them as a sticky forum every now and then. So I printed them out, and tried to use them once to prove I was right on a rule...the asshole I was arguing with said even though the guy who wrote the book says "this is how you do it", it wasn't in an official FAQ so it didn't apply. God I love the mentality of some 40k players. |
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on May 7, 2008 0:11:00 GMT -6
All I have to say about the horribleness of GW's abilities with rules/rule books can be summed up from page 22 from 7th edition Warhammer:
"Rather than clutter the rules with endless clarifications, we have included further examples on our website" Page 22 of 7th BRB
God forbid you have rules in the rule book that wouldnt make sense at all.
Also good luck finding those examples on the website as the GW site isnt that great for navigating either.
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Post by kernbanks on May 7, 2008 2:04:24 GMT -6
we would all appreciate clear concise rules that are easy to understand. but i think the number one thing that gaming is about... HAVING FUN
i think that is lost for some reason. young gamers are really focused on winning... old pro's vary, but many get into it to win. now i'm just as competitive as the next guy - an Alpha + personality - but gaming is my release. all aspects of the hobby allow me to relax, painting, terrain building, building armies, and playing.
that is where GW might be wrong. a lot of energy is spent on tourneys, games days, cons, RTTs... in their stores, that atmosphere is carried.
in independent stores... well dudes go there to have fun, they play a lot of different games becuase it is thier hobby. it is a social event just like going to the bar (well... not quiet but as close as the real stinky gamers will get).
my 2 cents... i definately like this forum, a lot of references to making a house rule. i don't know about everyone else... but if you want deamonettes next to your noise marines... it makes sense to me... just let me take some grey knights with my tau... i know wierd... but the ordo will use the alien as a speed bump at the fore of humanity... and the ordo will ensure that deamon host is killed before it gets too big of a threat. (kinda like those pesky elder... always trying to shape fate)
ciao
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Post by Leudast1215 on May 7, 2008 11:16:18 GMT -6
I happen to agree with this mentality, It frankly does not bother me at all that someone would want to combine two codices (using a reasonable ally system) to play with for friendly games because it's just a game. However, in the interest of fairness, I think it's appropiate to allow the other player to employ the same system. You want Grey Knights with your Tau? Fine with me they're cool models, but then let me use my Hive Tyrant (my favorite model ever and obviously synapse wouldn't apply to the Tau because... They're Tau, not 'Nids) with my Tau and we can have a slugging match in the middle of the board and I can watch my Hive Tyrant die to a non-5th Edition Force Weapon ^_^. The rules are after all ultimately guide lines, the 40K minis for the most part are pretty good quality in terms of aesthetics now so there's no harm in ad-hoc house rules if both players agree, but they have to benefit both players more or less equally, thus an ally system for general use.
This kind of gameplay isn't what GW is promoting as was said earlier they're going for the tournament atmosphere. Needless to say this doesn't exactly encourage sportmanship or rational communication between the two players involved. Maybe if they posted regular meaningful Faqs and promoted rule systems to allow casual gamers to have more fun with our (expensive and good looking) toy soldiers they wouldn't be in the perceived decline they're currently in. I mean, heck, upon reviewing 5th edition rules more I'm pretty much dropping the idea of a Kroot Mercenary army and instead going to invest in a Hordes/Warmachine miniatures because the core rule system is just better and they actually have FORUMS!!! that I can visit to learn more about the game/hobby. Warseer gets on my nerves because it's a perpetual whine fest...
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