how best to step on the bugs!

[Jimothy]

Hey so i was just curious what everyones basic plans is when they go up against tyranids. My point behind this post is to get a better idea of what i might try because everytime i go up against the bugs I just get spanked. I of course play tau and tau specific advice would be hot, but i am curious overall how other armies look at the problem of tyranids.

[Leudast1215]

I play both Tau and Tyranids (the latter being put aside until Winter Break so I can paint them up) so here's my $0.02:

Equip as many Burst Canons and Flamers as possible into the army, regardless of size. I recommend SS (Stealth Suits) if you prefer shooty shooty, or if you want flamers and shooty shooty in one unit take a Crisis Suit with a twin-linked Burst Canon and a Flamer for 41 points.

Equip your tanks with Flechette Dischargers.

Don't bother buying invulnerable saves for your suits.

Keep your Fire Warriors in Devilfish. Move 6+ inches every turn with said 'Fish to ensure the enemy hits your rear armor on a 6+ and is wounded on a 4+ before attacks are made due to the Flechette Dischargers.

Take the Airburst Fragmentation Projector special equipment for your HQ Crisis Suit.

Always use the large blast option with your Hammerhead. Take dual Burst Canons with it (remember, they're two sponsons, therefore only 1 of them dies per weapon destroyed hit). Also equip Flechette Dischargers.

Take a few broad sides or Sniper Teams (I know you have the latter) and target Synapse creatures first.

Make sure the map has a realistic and appropriate amount of terrain. If it's more or less open, just call it in quits. You will lose. Tau, despite their reputation in fluff and out as being a long range shooty army, is in reality an army that performs best at 12-18" and maneuvering through use of cover and obstacles.

If you have the points, equip your Devilfish with Smart Missiles and give them a Targeting Array so you'll have a Warfish dealing out 7 S5 shots at BS4 a turn (you have to move less than 6" for this though; otherwise it's 4 S5 shots). Unlike Burst Canons, when the Smart Missiles get a weapon destroyed, the whole system dies in spite of their being two sponsons given the fact that Smart Missiles are just Heavy 4.

Use a few Crisis Suits with either Fusion or Plasma combined with Missile Pods to take out monstrous creatures. The low AP weaponry combined with the ubiquitously useful Missile Pods = crying monstrous creature or Synapse bug.

Move a lot. Do not stand still. Use tanks as moving cover for your Crisis Suits so if they assault, they assault the Devilfish; more like puffer fish with Flechette Dischargers.

If you divide your army, make one portion of it significantly stronger than the other; the good old Hammer and Anvil tactic of Alexander the Great works just as well (roughly) 2,400 years ago as it does in modern strategy games (and war).

If you target a monstrous creature or synapse bug, shoot at it with all high strength and/or low AP weaponry until it's dead. DO NOT spread out said firepower amongst the big bugs. Bring em' down one by one. Against Warriors, just fill em' full of S5 shooty until they die. Against Zoanthropes, Railguns, Plasma and Fusion Blasters = happy Tau. Do not waste your S5 shooty on their kind.

Take a bait unit and deploy it within easy CC distance. Use Kroot or Gue'Vesa or a cheap Fire Warrior squad. Crisis Suits with flamers are an amazing counter-attack unit because you flame em' then you charge em' and probably beat them in melee due to 3 S5 attacks per Crisis Suit on the charge ^_^. This is a tactic for the little bugs; not the big ones like Carnifex or warriors.

Of the little(er) bugs, shoot the Hormagaunts and Raveners first.

Of the big bugs, Shoot Tyrants over Carnifex.

Of the medium bugs, Shoot isolated Zoanthropes with low AP weaponry over Warriors (unless you have a lot of spare S5 shooty, then shoot them both).

If there are Genestealers; then you know what to do. For the Greater Good, let no weapon within range not be turned towards thy foe and rend them asunder.

If said Genestealers are out-flanking, stay the hell away from the board edges and gun them down and laugh the next turn. The only reason these guys should be considered scary to Tau is because they're better than most little bugs at squishing tanks due to rending. Otherwise, frankly, there are more bugs with longer charge ranges (Hormagaunts) or Synapse creatures to shoot. If you are charged you will die; it doesn't matter if it's from Genestealers or not. That's something for MEQ players to be squeamish about; not T3 4+ armor save Tau. They're dead anyways ^_^.

[RedSparrow]

A friend of mine just got a Tyranid army for Christmas so I've had a few problems in this department lately.

Properly set up, there are a few nasty tricks for a 'nid' army. My personal bane being Genestealers that infiltrate and scout.

The stealers are legaly allowed to set up within 18 inches of your troops, through scouting, moving, running, and finally assaulting. The sad thing is that this move is both legal and horrificly effective even against tough front lines like Space Marines. Sure, they have to pay serious points for the upgrades to do it, but belive me when I say that it's worth it.

The best you can hope for is seizing the initiative and denying them a first-round charge. Not really tactical advice so much as luck. You need to screen your vunerable units and be ready with a counterattack, either close range fire or an assault. But if you ask me, there's never a good reason to attack a Genestealer in hand to hand combat.

Presicion fire is what it comes down to. You need to be ready to wipe them all out. The best part is that if you succeed here, you've probably managed to grab a win. After all, if the stealers failed, who will pick up the slack? Termigaunts? Not likely.

You're best option for fighting Carnifexes is simply to avoid them. They simply arn't that fast and have trouble getting to where they will do great harm. Slow them down with a less usefull squad if you have to. A properly equiped Carnifex is difficult to kill with ranged attacks, you need dedicated heavy weapons fire and it's probably better spent elsewhere.


Well, those are just some of my impressions. What do you guys think about a Genestealer-oriented infiltrate attack?

[lixulan]

Jan 20, 2009 17:06:55 GMT -6 RedSparrow said:

The stealers are legaly allowed to set up within 18 inches of your troops, through scouting, moving, running, and finally assaulting. The sad thing is that this move is both legal and horrificly effective even against tough front lines like Space Marines. Sure, they have to pay serious points for the upgrades to do it, but belive me when I say that it's worth it.

they can buy "scuttlers" +4 point which gives them the "scout" rule but it doesnt give them the "infiltrate" rule. So they have to set up in their deployment zone and make a scout move from there which also should be noted they have to be "more than" 12" away from the enemy when they finish their deployment.

[Andrew]

Right, so Genestealers should not be able to get a first turn charge if they deploy "more than 24" from an enemy, which is the rule for most of the missions. 6" scuttle + 6" 1st turn move + 6" fleet + 6" charge is still only 24", which is less than "more than 24 away," clearly.

Now if the deployment distance is 18", then it's possible. I think it is for one of the missions.

[Leudast1215]

Scuttler is not +4 points, you're 1 point over. You're listing the cost for the 4+ armor save on Genestealers.

Genestealers, perhaps being redundant, cannot Infiltrate. They can purchase Scout and therefore receive a free 6" before the 1st turn OR be held in Reserve to Outflank an opponent. Frankly, if you choose this option, don't bother with the 4+ armor save. It doesn't matter how expensive you make these little buggers. After they charge an opponents flank with 6" + Fleet + 6" they'll die to shooting and/or assault, 4+ armor save or not.

Just to emphasize: Genestealers cannot legally get a 1st turn charge, even if you deployed 12" forward in your deployment zone. I personally cannot understand why people do this unless they're a dedicated CC or Rapid Fire army... However, if you're foolish enough to move towards them, I'm sure the Tyranid opponent would be happy to sick Hormagaunts on em' with their 12" + Fleet + 6" ^_^.

Btw there's no reason not to buy Feeder Tendrils as it's probably the single most under priced ability in all of Warhammer 40K and Warhammer due to the changes in Preferred Enemy. Screw Frag Grenades when I can re roll all missed attacks in melee.

[RedSparrow]

Ok so it comes down to this:

Broodlord has infiltrate and extends this ability to his genestealer retinue.

The genestealers can scout and fleet.

The broodlord cannot.

So the squad and lord set up 18" away, but can't scout or fleet.

But if the lord and stealers separated during the scout phase, the stealers would be 12" away at the start of game with a fleeted run forward.


So can the lord separate from his brood in the scout phase, or does he have to wait for his movement phase?

[Leudast1215]

The Broodlord is an Independent Character who must purchase a Genestealer retinue of 5-11 models. The Broodlord cannot leave his retinue nor join any other unit (in)voluntarily until his retinue is dead. Since the Broodlord cannot purchase Scout, he cannot Scout and therefore his retinue cannot scout.

The only legal way to get a Broodlord on his own to is to take 5 naked Genestealers and put them out of cover first turn, but that's a waste of points...

In other words, the Broodlord has an awesome model with neat fluff who got some terribly counter-intuitive and contradictory rules that wind up hurting a Genestealer squad's ability to do its job. This is why they are rarely, if ever, seen in competitive Tyranid lists in tournaments. The bastard cannot even Fleet.

If he could fleet and/or buy Scuttler, then he would be a very useful HQ choice beyond the often obligatory Hive Tyrant.

[Andrew]

Just to emphasize: Genestealers cannot legally get a 1st turn charge

You're still very wrong. If two armies get to deploy "more than 18" from each other," such as in Dawn of War deployments, then Genestealers can easily get the 1st turn charge. I'll lay it out for you:

18.00001" deployment distance between two units.
Genestealers get a 6" scuttle. Genestealers get a 6" move. Genestealers get a 1-6" fleet. Genestealers get a 6" charge. That's 19-24".

19-24" > 18.00001"

Right?

This can happen quite readily in the DoW deployment. If I get first deployment, I move one or two units all the way to the halfway line to push back the Tyranid deployment so they'll start as far away from me as possible. Oops, Tyranid player stole the initiative and got the first turn. Hey look, easy 1st turn charge...

[Leudast1215]

I was assuming a 24" deployment and an opponent who doesn't march forwards towards Tyranid CC units

[dragonbait]

Everyone always assumes 24" deployment. I see about probably 70% of people when they play fun games and complain when the deployment type is anything but the standard 12" zones off the edge. Learn to play better at Spearhead and Dawn of War then.

As far as killing 'nids with tau. Stay more than 12" away from the table sides with all of your troops. Take advantage of the 2" you get to distance your models from one another to avoid blast templates, most of the 'nid ones can cause a good deal of damage to your T3 guys. Flamers aren't bad but if you want one you have to sacrifice a longer range and stronger weapon. Rail guns in any of their forms are fantastic, preferably on a Hammer Head. Ion cannons also are nice, but really only good for killing up to one warrior per turn, unarmored fex ever two turns, or tyrant guard (and everything else obviously like gaunts and genestealers, but that's a waste of your points). That HQ dude that can do the large blast template that ignores cover, massacres gaunts when it hits. You also run kroot jim. I suggest planting them in front of your other troops as a shield. Even if they get massacred in an assault, it gives you a very valuable turn to shoot with your better units.

Also, quitting any game before it even starts is cowardice, or worse.

[Leudast1215]

I would say it's the sign of a wise commander who knows when and how to pick his/her fights . Speaking from a military history perspective, that is.

[dragonbait]

Military history has nothing to do with this game. Doesn't have much gameplay-wise to do with any miniature war game for that matter.

[ddaypunk06]

Its all math and statistics ain't it? lol

[dragonbait]

The dice rolling portion of the game is all stats, lol....but the rest is sound strategy, deception, and a bit of luck if you want believe in it. Poor Jim too, we've hijacked his thread and he's been too busy with work to even come blow up 'nids with our advice.

[ddaypunk06]

yea, hopefully he shows up this week. Maybe dubs could show him a thing or two.