Daemons (because Tom asked nicely)

[Andrew]

I've already posted on including C:D daemons in a C:CSM army, so that's not for here, and I doubt I'll ever do that anyway except Apocalypse. Here is where I lay out ideas for improving on the template GW gave us for Summoned Lesser Daemons and Greater Daemons. Let's start with Greater Daemons.

Base: 100 pts
Statline: 8_0_6_6_4_4_5_10_4+*
Special Rules: Monstrous Creature, Fearless

Firstly, this needs to be added into the special rules: Daemon. Yea, GW f-ed that up too.

What I would do to improve this basic statline is simply to add some options like thusly:

One from the following list:
Mark of Slaanesh (+1I): 10 points
Mark of Khorne (+1A): 10 points
Mark of Nurgle (+1T): 15 points
Mark of Tzeentch (+1 to Inv save): 20 points

These work exactly like the marks for the chaos marines, so consistency is kept while flavor is added. I'm basing the points values off the Daemon Prince entry, as it's both the direct rival to the Greater Daemon and the most similar unit in the codex, the most obvious difference being the Greater Daemon won't start on the table to be shot at immediately, as well as being able to assault after possessing a chaos dude. So now we have our flavor of the gods. How to improve further? Add movement abilities!

One from the following list:
Wings: 20 points
Fleet: 25 points
Cavalry: 45 points

This allows for some customization. It could be the regular ol' wings like usual, or for Slaanesh it could be snake-like, using the model from the Fantasy range. Or it could just be Fleet, that's cool too. The last two are more expensive than wings, even though their base move would stay 6" and not 12", because the last two improve assault distances, and from possession that's huge. Thus they cost appropriately.

Beyond that, psychic powers aren't necessary, as that's what princes or whatever are for. Greater Daemons are done. On to Summoned Lesser Daemons!

Base: 13 points
Statline: 4_0_4_4_1_4_2_10_5+*
Special Rules: Fearless

Again, we have to add in Daemon. Seriously, GW must've been smokin' the dope with this codex.

We will use the same system of Marks as before. Unfortunately, GW was gay with icons, so determining a good cost for Marks will be a little more difficult; good thing there's a precedent anyway from past codecies.

One from the following list:
Mark of Chaos Undivided (+1S): 2 points
Mark of Slaanesh (+1I): 2 points
Mark of Khorne (+1A): 3 points
Mark of Nurgle (+1T): 5 points
Mark of Tzeentch (+1 to Inv save): 4 points

We have a new Mark, Undivided, here because there are still some fans of Furies, myself included. There are no Undivided Greater Daemons in existence in the fluff anywhere, other than maybe Be'lakor from Fantasy...which would make for another good Greater Daemon model. All indicators of Undivided simply make the model 1 pip stronger if they're already fearless, so here we are with more flavor already. Again, on to movement options for variation.

One from the following list:
Wings: 1 point
Fleet: 2 points
Cavalry: 3 points

For the same reasons as given the first time. Again, nothing more needed. And if there is, well I'd might as well go play C: Chaos Daemons now. Here's where we conclude with newfangled unit entries:
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Summoned Greater Daemon
Cost: 100 pts
Statline: 8_0_6_6_4_4_5_10_4+*
Special Rules: Monstrous Creature, Fearless, Daemon

Must take one from the following list:
Mark of Slaanesh (+1I): +10 points
Mark of Khorne (+1A): +10 points
Mark of Nurgle (+1T): +15 points
Mark of Tzeentch (+1 to Inv save): +20 points

If it does not have the Mark of Nurgle, then it may take one from the following list:
Wings: +20 points
Fleet: +25 points
Cavalry: +45 points

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Summoned Lesser Daemons
Cost: 13 points per model
Unit Size: 5-20
Statline: 4_0_4_4_1_4_2_10_5+*
Special Rules: Fearless, Daemon

The whole unit must take one from the following list:
Mark of Chaos Undivided (+1S): +2 points per model
Mark of Slaanesh (+1I): +2 points per model
Mark of Khorne (+1A): +3 points per model
Mark of Tzeentch (+1 to Inv save): +4 points per model
Mark of Nurgle (+1T): +5 points per model


If the unit has the Mark listed in parentheses, it may take one of the following:
Wings (Undivided or Tzeentch): +1 point per model
Fleet (Undivided, Khorne, or Slaanesh): +2 points per model
Cavalry (Khorne or Slaanesh): +3 points per model

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These options give some room for variations and to use the daemon models as they are. They are balanced (hopefully) and give a flavor to greater and lesser daemons, rather than being "generic" each and every time. It will cut down on confusion too. Many people ask me why horrors and bloodletters are in the same unit. I say because they are all the same, and my opponent gets even more confused. This way, at a glance my opponent will know what my piddly daemons can do so far as extra movement, or what alignment they might have. All of this leads to a nice way to show how my Word Bearers can call upon all of the gods of chaos to support them. This could've easily been originally implemented with the sheer amount of white space given to them in the codex. Really.

And it's not merely a wishlist, heh.

[Leudast1215]

I agree mostly with the proposed changes, but wings need to be 10-15 points higher on the Greater Daemon because a Tyranid Flyrant's wings are more than 30 points and a Greater Daemon is better than said unit since it's cheaper for similar, if not better, killyness. The issue also isn't just assault range, it's the movement from one piece of cover to the next that makes being Winged/Jump Infantry (not Jetpack!) so good.

I'd say buff the +T on Lesser Daemons to +4 points, because increased survivability through being much harder to wound is really good and is kind of the default choice at +3 points. At +3 points, I couldn't consciously choose +I, +A or +Inv over it. At +4, it at least would make me re-think it because the points will add up. I'd also propose that the +S be 3 points, if not 4, because a Genestealer has that exact same upgrade for 4 points and said upgrade in no way overly-increases it's killyness compared to these proposed upgrades because +S has no effect on the Genestealer's Rending ability and it's also 2 attacks base.

[Andrew]

Good that you're thinking, but you can't compare apples and oranges. The two codecies, not to mention units, work in very different ways, and hence why the points costs won't be equal on that level. Plus yours is older and doesn't reflect 5th edition or GW's current design plans. I keep the value for tzeentch though, as nurgle is consistently more expensive in the codex (dunno how I missed that). I'll up it to +5.

Strength boost is supposed to be the cheapest option as it has always been, typically. All Undivided models have one more strength than toughness, in every codex (furies, daemon weapon, daemon prince, etc). It's what defines them in the statline, it seems, so I'll roll with it. It didn't actually affect much last edition, and probably won't again in this edition, so cheap it will stay.

My points costs for the greater daemon are based off the daemon prince option, which is far more similar to the greater daemon than a tyrant possibly could. I've even upped the cost on the mark of nurgle in the original version here. See, a tyrant gets to use its wings all the time, every turn, and gives it nasty mobility with nasty guns, or claws. A greater daemon doesn't get to use his wings until the 3rd turn, minimum, at which point the game is half over. Not only that, but it doesn't have any ranged weapons whatsoever to help take advantage of said wings. It doesn't have a 3+ or 2+ armor save, it isn't immune to instant death, can't get psychic powers. Its initiative is also quite lower than a tyrant. Sure it has an invulnerable, but this can be negated by Inquisition, space marines, and Necrons, among others. It's not better in killiness than a tyrant. The points for a tyrant's wings reflect all of the additional options and combos that can be made, while a greater daemons reflects the lack thereof. The same goes for the points on the lesser daemons; unless they take the mark of tzeentch, they have a 5+ save. Granted, it's invulnerable, but there are easy ways around that.

These things and more have to be kept in mind when coming up with new rules, not just comparing one unit to another and saying they're similar; that never comes up correctly.

The cavalry option is far more expensive than wings for good reason. That will allow it to Fleet and assault 12", which is definitively more dangerous than mere wings. Wings are slow in comparison. In fact, I'll up the points to +45 for cavalry because it is that scary.

[Leudast1215]

I see where you're coming from on the +S, the Tyranid Codex is probably too out-dated point wise for its own good I guess (just look at Gaunts).

Still think wings are too cheap, but Cavalry for a pure melee unit is actually better, so the price increase there is warranted. I didn't know this specific Daemon couldn't have shooting attacks because I was thinking of the "official" Daemons from the Daemon codex; that changes things.

Otherwise I'm cool and wouldn't mind playing this in a fun game ^_^. I've never beaten your Chaos Space Marines before, but I can dream.

[Andrew]

What, you didn't catch the significance of the Ballistic Skill = 0? Heh. I thought I mentioned these daemons are from C:CSM, guess not. But yes, think of these rules as replacements for the daemons entries in C:CSM, not C:CD.

[Leudast1215]

I'm sorry I haven't memorized the order in which Stats appear from left to right