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Post by ddaypunk06 on Jan 23, 2009 23:25:35 GMT -6
Again I will agree with Mike as everyone else has.
I have only had a few wins and each time I learn how to use a unit differently. Kinda sucks that I learned about the Pirates after I bought them, since I want to get rid of them. Great solos, but they all need one another and thus must act in a group.
Anyways. Jack oriented armies are hard to carry out. Vic played the cygnar jack based army and won a lot of games, but then you have less things to prioritize when you play against him. Each army has its niche, but it is possible to build shooty versus CC for each and every army.
I use CoO. They are fun to play. They are a bit customizable, warpwolfs specifically. Their warp spasm abilities allow them to change each round (+2S, +2Arm, or +2" on the charge I think...) Pure bloods have a similar but bossted versions. I play Kaya or Kromac...who I play decides who I use. Kromac for hordes enemies and kaya for jack armies usually although she could be used against hordes too.. Epic Kaya will be a force to be reckoned with as her familiar is sweet.
Constructs in CoO are a whole different ball and are good with either Baldur or Kreuger.
Morhvana is a bitch when you use a lot of troops I believe.
So as has been said, casters affect a lot of the game. And the big seller in this game for me was that the fluff evolves. As it evolves, so do your casters and solos. Sometimes more powerful, sometimes they gain other abilities....etc.
For me, my CoO army are the Beasts of the Dark Forest...lol I just made that up. I use all furry beasts and soon to be wolves and reeves of orboros...possibly some of the tharn beastmen.
I'm still working on them particularly...I've won maybe twice with them and maybe 5 times with my Mercs (Magnus!).
Anyways, I'm rambling. Don't down the game when you have never played it. Its a good game and entirely different than WH40K. Its also funny that fantasy can be a totally different game from 40k too.
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 24, 2009 0:41:28 GMT -6
I'm not bashing the game or the rules, but PP's method of evolving the game itself. They're obligating you to buy new models to get new abilities. Warhammer and Warhammer 40K do have this, but the vast majority of the time you buy new models to buy the new (often better looking) model; not the rules that go with it because the rules for the new squad is in the codex, like Orks, still apply to the old models. A well established army in a GW system can re-tool itself given a new codex comes out cause most, if not all, of the units are there; the just change thus you can still use your whole army if you want to (differently). In PP, if I want newer and often better rules, I gotta buy that new (often better looking) model. This normally wouldn't be a problem, but PP has inadvertently flooded their own market place with too many individual model options that no one will ever really use in a competitive atmosphere and PP's market is a lot smaller than GWs. Just find it odd they'd shoot themselves in the foot like that; give the old models some love by changing their rules to be more in line with the newer ones or *gasp* re-sculpt their 1st generation models with regards to infantry and jacks (1st gen Khador Jacks, the 2 of em' are meh) and make them better like with the Jacks. Some of the light jacks for any faction are just... ugly. Cryx's death turkeys are fine though. I mean if PP updated their Pirate rules to be more fair/competitive, I'm sure you'd want to keep em'. But they won't, so if you want new game play you gotta stop using and/or get rid of em'  . At the moment I just bought Khador's "Drago" Jack cause it's one of the coolest minis I've seen in a while. Pricey, but the %20 off helped from OBG. I'll see how much I enjoy painting that psychotic/explodey bugger up and decide if I'll expand from there to Demo Corps, Vlad (obvious), Widows, etc... I do gotta hand it to PP; they know how to make poses look EPIC with few exceptions (take notes GW...). Maybe I'll just get a bunch of solos cause they're good rule wise, but primarily cause their models for Khador are pretty spiffy and will help eat up points and add variety. |
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Post by Pop goes the world on Jan 24, 2009 3:03:32 GMT -6
Yeah, but you are kind of wrong, and you are missing the big picture.
When GW re-does one of their armies (which only happens for non-space marine armies every five years or so), lots of old stuff gets erased from the rules, and they come out with new models for the same old shit. Maybe one or two new things.
When Privateer does one of their releases, every faction gets new units. Plus, learning from GW's mistakes, they have vowed never to 'discontinue' any of their models from circulation. Hence, you will never have models (like my old Undead screaming skull catapults, chariots, and skeleton archers that got turned into a whole separate army) that become unusable.
As for being 'forced' to but new stuff, you are downright mistaken. Most of the best troop types, solos, and warcasters were released in Warmachine: Prime, and they still play as well as the day they were released (esp. for Cryx and Cygnar). Yes, you might have to adapt your tactics to evolve to newer units and abilities, but all that means is that your army will never get stagnant. If you want to pick up a new unit attachment or warjack that comes out with a new expansion, great. If not, you still have a great, perfectly playable army. Really, all you get is more options, instead of obligations to buy more stuff. Sure, if you are a power gamer, or if you are running net lists you will have to buy new stuff, but the old stuff is still great. Good old Kreoss still knocks down everybody in his control radius, whether that are new models or old ones. Plus- and trust me on this one, in a game where everything is so powerful, there are few bad armies. Any list can be played well and win, for the most part. Though Delso didn't catch too much luck with his pirates, Ben kicked ass with his. It has less to do with flawed design and more to do with how you play your army.
Frankly, I think you are transposing lessons you have learned from other systems onto Warmachine, a system which you don't have much experience with. Get a few games under your belt, play against a few different factions, and I am pretty sure you will change your mind.
If the Warmachine system seems so flawed, maybe it's just not the system for you. I just think you should give it serious a shot before you make up your mind about it.
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on Jan 24, 2009 8:21:32 GMT -6
Most of my Menoth army are old models/rules and I win with those even against newer models/rules.
Do what everyone is saying and play the game before judging if the gameplay is messed up by the abundance of new figures and rules coming out. I personally am glad that new figures come out with new rules and yet old figures are still playable...why because of the exact reason Adam said where GW makes a new codex/army book and figures/units you once used to great results are no longer a unit you can purchase...wow there goes 60$ worth of pewter that I cannot even use anymore, Thanks GW.
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Post by Rios on Jan 25, 2009 1:18:50 GMT -6
alright ill be there tomorrow again...looking forward to some games if people show up
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 25, 2009 4:11:11 GMT -6
think I'll paint up Dragos; that bugger took 4 hours to assemble and he's not fully done yet; still gotta throw on the spikes and chains and the head  . Yippee for green stuff otherwise he'd be a pile of metal. Now what color scheme do i use? I vote a tweaked version of my (well painted 8 Fire Warriors) scheme with some rusty chains and a lot of weathering through dry brushing? |
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Post by ddaypunk06 on Jan 26, 2009 13:18:15 GMT -6
I'm always for trying out new colors, I noticed I use green a lot...thats why I am working on new schemes for my marines.
However, if you like that color scheme I came up with for the Tau you bought off me, by all means go for it. Its neutral to a sense, but quite dark...its the grey undercoat I use.
As for Sunday...Rios beat me by killing Magnus...but I faired good overall I think. For not playing them in maybe 8 months I think I did good. Magnus and a Renegade took down the carnivean and a Bokur with dismember took down the flying one...I never remember the name lol. Then I forgot the open spot where the carnivean died would expose magnus. Rios' caster leeched the 3 on the flying beast after it died and shot magnus to dead...had he not died she would have surely been charged and royaly screwed. I think almost each shot did at least 6 dmg, and with 5 fury to spend and the extra shot ability she has...4 or 5 shots later he was a pincushion.
Played 40k after that. Short story...Eldar whooped the Templar. Plain and simple lol.
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Post by Rios on Jan 27, 2009 21:36:03 GMT -6
i'm planning on being there sunday to play some games til i got to go to work, cause well, fuck the steelers and cardinals, neither of those teams should be in the super bowl anyways, watch hockey you pussies.
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Post by Pop goes the world on Jan 28, 2009 0:56:46 GMT -6
I might show up too, because yeah, fuck the steelers and cards. They play footballs, right?
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 28, 2009 12:45:47 GMT -6
Assuming I'm allowed to proxy everything but the Warjack Dragos I could field a small Khador force using my Tau (cause they're red ^_^) since John has virtually no Khador minis in stock and like only 1 caster from Legends that has a neat looking artwork like the original Sorcha, but unlike Sorcha, has a hideously disappointing model  . Epic Vlad though looks pretty sweet; lot more detail than the original and probably the one I'll wind up getting. Yes I know he's "epic" but that doesn't stop me from using his model to depict his normal version cause it's nothing more than a re-sculpt. |
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Post by ddaypunk06 on Jan 28, 2009 12:55:58 GMT -6
You don't have to tell us the rules man, we know its okay to use an epic model with the non-epic stat/spell cards. However, this would not be allowed in official tournaments. Ask Adam.
I got no problem with proxies, except that 40k bases are smaller and this game measures from base to base unfortunately. If you are willing to allow for the extra space outside the base when measured, I'm okay with this...seeing this game has shorter ranged weapons.
I'm not sure who I will play this weekend, once I get another game case I can bring them all with...but I will probably play Mercs...seeing as the selection I have has more variety.
(Note to adam, I'm kinda thinking of the Rhulic guys you have, seeing the stuff is 20% off at OBG...but I'm not sure he has any casters...so we will see.)
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 28, 2009 13:07:22 GMT -6
so, technically, in a tournament setting, I could not use what amounts to nothing more than an alternate (and more expensive) sculpt to pass as the "generic" version of Vlad, or any Warcaster for that matter? That seems kinda picky beyond WYSIWYG... Not implying it's your personal policy/philosophy, just that level of discrimination alone would put me off from ever participating in a Hordes/Warmachine tournament setting cause if I want the higher quality model I'll ironically be unable to use it in most tournaments. I mean other than more detail, the ony difference is that he's crouched in a different pose... I could cut up the original model and pose him similarly for the same effect and that would make him epic then?  Unless it's the little bases on top of their base they come with that makes them taller; I could just not use that and it be cool? Btw I didn't know the rules regarding "epic" sculpts and normal games of Warmachine/Hordes so I was going out of my way to explain my views on the issue before hand. Also, in friendly games, could I use the Minion Saxon Orrick model as a "count-as" for Mercenary Kell Bailoch (using Kell Bailoch's rules)? They're both have sniper models, I just feel the Minion model is more to my liking than the Mercenary version. Since I don't have Legends at the moment, can the following Mercenaries and/or Minions be used with Khador? Anastasia di Bray Gorman di Wulfe Kell Bailoch Saxon Orrick Thor Steinhammer Eiryss Farrow Brigands Farrow Bone Grinders Viktor Pendrake Alten Ashley I like their models... |
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Post by bensliver on Jan 28, 2009 15:09:57 GMT -6
Well for epic and non-epics, each is a separate model with seperate rules. I don't think it is a big deal to use the actual model to prevent confusion in a tournament. You will need the stat card anyway.
Also, epic models are variants that can only be used in 750+ games, so I wouldn't worry about getting an epic model until you have a decent collection and some games under your belt.
Friendly games, whatever you and whoever you're playing can agree on is what you can do. You should buy the models you're playing, excessive proxies are really annoying.
For army building I recommend Armies of Immoren. Google it, it's free.
And so I have answered all questions. DAMN I rock.
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 28, 2009 15:30:07 GMT -6
Well what perplexes me is that while using certain models to represent units makes sense, the "epic" versions are THE SAME model, just differently posed (with more detail). Therefore, I could pose a non-epic Vlad the same as epic Vlad and put him on a little rock and wallah I have epic Vlad, but it's still the same model. When it comes down to the epic/non epic models of the same warcaster, the only thing that should realistically and logically matter is the actual card you use.
I mean, people were perfectly fine with me not having Smart Missile Systems on my Devilfish in the latest tournament and just tossing two flamers onto my HQ's base to represent twin-linked flamers. There's reasonable levels of proxying allowed even in tournaments. This specific example about Vlad and his epic/non-epic model is even less of a stretch than the after mentioned tournament reference.
One of the few instances in which I couldn't see this working is with the two variants of the Berserker Warjack from Khador. One looks a lot better than the other, but in a tournament you couldn't proxy one as the other cause they're two distinct entities with different models/units; not just differently posed.
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Post by ddaypunk06 on Jan 28, 2009 20:55:29 GMT -6
I'm just telling you how it is man. Epic characters are usually distinctly different than their non-epic counter parts. Some might field different weapons and thats why I say it might not be allowed.
Just a random example, not warcasters...I have two Renegade light jacks, and just to spice up my army, I glued the right arm on the other side and vice versa. Adam let me know that this would most likely not be allowed...as this game is very specific on locations of weapons and what not.
When I said official tournaments, I meant outside of OBG. Again, ask adam as he's the only one who has done any of that I think.
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 28, 2009 22:11:44 GMT -6
I know I'm not blaming you Delso  I on purpose try to write about the issue and not people who bring it up cause you're just the messenger. I probably wont be participating in tournaments outside of OBG for the near future anyway so it's a moot issue; I just found the strictness being implied a bit, well, much. Now if I can just get the time to finish painting that model... Team Fortress 2 took up my free time this evening. Btw, Delso, what's your STEAM addy? I thought I heard you reference Team Fortress 2 once and I can't play Battlefield 2142 as I thought cause I cannot find the CD key cause apparently I "misplaced" the manual . Which is a shame, because I got Punkbuster working. |
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Post by RARE CHOICE GAMES on Jan 28, 2009 23:09:35 GMT -6
The point is you are not supposed to do those things in tournaments. We arent saying that you wont come across people who dont care but you will come across someone eventually who will care and then you wont be able to use the model period or will have to change the stats or whatever cause technically that person is in the right.
We know it sucks but it is the rules...deal with it. Sorry to kinda be a little harsh about this but every tournament that comes up you complain about it, we get it that you dont like this rule and for the most part we sympathize (sometimes) but just because you dont like things doesnt mean it should go away. I dont like obeying the speed limit but I have too. I dont like having to be respectful to customers at my business and not punch them in the fucking face for asking stupid questions but I have to...its something I have to deal with...now you have to deal with these rules.
Sorry for the long reply.
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Post by Pop goes the world on Jan 28, 2009 23:27:28 GMT -6
so, technically, in a tournament setting, I could not use what amounts to nothing more than an alternate (and more expensive) sculpt to pass as the "generic" version of Vlad, or any Warcaster for that matter? That seems kinda picky beyond WYSIWYG... Not implying it's your personal policy/philosophy, just that level of discrimination alone would put me off from ever participating in a Hordes/Warmachine tournament setting cause if I want the higher quality model I'll ironically be unable to use it in most tournaments. I like their models... Almost every epic is technically different from his 'normal' form. Epic Vlad has a different weapon than his non-epic self. Just like with every other miniatures game, using the proper model is really just to avoid confusion amongst your opponent. Proxies are okay to rey out a new or different model/unit you might not have yet, but it is always good form to use the proper models. That way your opponent always knows exactly what is going on. It makes sense, really. As for the arm-switching Delso mentioned, since warjack arms are technically playable entities (i.e. they take damage, have abilities, etc.) you are supposed to have the arms represented appropriately. Hence, putting the Juggernaut's axe in his left hand is a no-go, because his right hand is considered to be his axe, and his left is an open fist. This matters when an opponent preforms a weapon lock, or targets a specific part due to a special ability. As for which Mercs will work for Khador... Anastasia di Bray- No Gorman di Wulfe- Yes Kell Bailoch- Yes Saxon Orrick- Unknown- waiting on his No Quarter entry. Thor Steinhammer- Yes Eiryss- Yes Farrow Brigands- No (Minions) Farrow Bone Grinders- No (minions) Viktor Pendrake- No (Cygnar only for Mercs, I believe) Alten Ashley- Yes |
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Post by ddaypunk06 on Jan 31, 2009 1:41:34 GMT -6
Yea Tom I posted it in the DOW2 post.
gl_drac
I noticed a good amount of mercs work for Khador. Is Epic Eiryss out yet?
I really want to try the polar bear guy, but I have so much to paint I would rather not buy him yet. 40k is my paint priority right now.
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Post by Leudast1215 on Jan 31, 2009 15:16:00 GMT -6
Epic Eyriss is out.
Thanks for telling me which ones will actually work on a 1 to 1 basis.
Btw, do the new mercenary cavalry in Legends look any good gameplay wise? Model wise they're cavalry with axes and pistols which = cool.
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. Yippee for green stuff otherwise he'd be a pile of metal. Now what color scheme do i use? I vote a tweaked version of my (well painted 8 Fire Warriors) scheme with some rusty chains and a lot of weathering through dry brushing?
.
Unless it's the little bases on top of their base they come with that makes them taller; I could just not use that and it be cool?
I on purpose try to write about the issue and not people who bring it up cause you're just the messenger.