Operation Overlord

[Andrew]

Carl and I are playing it again, I taking the American and him the Germans. There are also the Russians and British, in case anybody is interested. All rules for the game at www.alzozero.it/eng/index.html

Uses 1/72 scale regular models, which are plentiful and cheap. You can raise a full 4000pt tournament army on just a crisp $50.

[edit] Oh right, I have a pair of German Tiger Ausf. E's and two Russian ISU 122's for sale. $5 each (for a pair)

[Leudast1215]

I want the German Tanks.

[Andrew]

Sure, I'll bring them Thursday so long as you bring me a $5 bank note. Then you and Carl and team up against my 5000+ points of Americans, yaaa!

[Andrew]

As for meetings, I'm not so sure I want to play on Thursdays, as I'd rather play other games with other people those nights. Nothing against OO, but it'd be better at a different time. Perhaps we can come up with a game day for this, say, Sundays after Warmachine time? That way you can get it all done at once Tom, without it running over schedules (hopefully). It'll also get me to get my Cygnar painted...maybe.

[Leudast1215]

Sunday evening then with Warmachine in the afternoon? Looks like I gotta gets me an order to that one OO website.

Btw I think your link on this forum to said website is broken.

Hey you don't have to paint them, just get the little buggers assembled. That way my one nicely painted mini can steam roll em' with the dice god's favor for being painted and then he'll go and blow himself up for good measure. Friendly Berserker

[Andrew]

Gay. Everything I try to link on our forums is broken.

[NonSequitur]

Hey its me, Carl! I actually would be interested in either sets of tanks seeing as I am considering starting a Russian army as well, mmm... heavy assault guns ;D. Hey, by the way, this is my first post, should I be posting anywhere else, I haven't had a chance to look around the forum yet.

[Leudast1215]

Hey so my note during History 343 worked. Dude you missed out on Taco Bell. Meh, nothing required, just browse around and comment on anything that strikes your fancy.

I still claim the 2 German Tanks... bu t we can talk about it Thursday with Andrew. Do we want 2 guys with Germany (kinda redundant) or should I get the 2 Russian tanks and be the Soviet Union? Huh, didn't consider that initially, have to look more into this.

Btw gimme the link for OO's new website!

[Rios]

carl theres a few who am i posts in the general forums, introductions, phone number, yada yada, clad to see ya on

[Andrew]

The link is reborn in my first post there.

I'd actually give preference to Carl if he does want the Tigers. Tom, you seem to have a Russian mentality anyway...somehow...either way, I'll bring both boxes on Thursday so you can prepare for Sunday's games.

[Leudast1215]

Really, how do you figure? I prefer playing as the Germans in like every WWII thingy I've ever touched. I'm actually kind of curious on your reasoning.

If it's based on personality, I prefer fighting small-scale guerilla type warfare against larger, less organized forces as my opponent. I'm not entirely sure what country that would 'make' me in WWII, but historically, I think a lot like Hannibal Barca circa the 3rd century BCE. Military genius who could win open-field battles against superior forces, but couldn't for the life of him conduct a successful seige nor seize the strategic initiative and spent too much time remaining static. AKA, a tactical thinker.

I still like the Tigers... pretty armored boxes of doom.

After browsing through the rules, I'm not entirely sure I like how they portrayed the Russians either. This horde, low leadership mentality they're pushing just doesn't fit historical fact . Human wave tactics were also rarely used and incompitent commanders were often shot. The Russians appeared to have superior #'s only because they were SMART enough to strategically allocate all their resources into one offensive at a time to acheive local superiority in men and material. Therefore, from a German perspective, the Russians would come at you in a never ending horde if you were 1 company covering 50 miles of Steppe facing down a Russian tank army (the equivalent of 1 German Panzer corps). At least the T34 looks about as good as it should be.

However, the Russians did employ the use of an armored tank wave on one occasion which lead to the destruction of a Russian tank corps I believe(1 German Panzer division). Otherwise, the average Russian was better equipped and supplied (thanks to the USA) than his/her German counter part and near the end of the war far better trained too. Heck, those iconic images of a Russian in a trench coat with a fur hat? ALL of those were made here in the US of A, courtesy of Lend Lease. Even most of their trucks and half their locomotives were delivered by the USA.

Therefore I argue if I have to play the Russians I get to use American logistic vehicles (like trucks, jeeps, etc...) because that's what the Russians used too. The rules thus far, to their credit, allow a Russian army to field certain types of Anglo tanks.

The Germans were just really good at what they did due to their radios and officer corps (until they all got shot and/or executed); of which the Russians had virtually none of either until maybe 1944?

[Pop goes the world]

You are wrong on a variety of points here, and you misrepresent a few others, but I won't get into too much detail... However... the fact that the casualty ratio during the Russo-German war was roughly 10:1 (10 Russians for every one German casualty) says a lot about the nature of the conflict. The Germans had tactically superior forces while the Russian had strategic superiority, and in the end the Russians simply had more material to throw into the fight. I won't debate that the Russians had some excellent individual combat units, but on the whole their forces were largely untrained or undertrained, and equipped with only the most basic weapons and provisions.

[Andrew]

Therefore I argue if I have to play the Russians I get to use American logistic vehicles (like trucks, jeeps, etc...) because that's what the Russians used too. The rules thus far, to their credit, allow a Russian army to field certain types of Anglo tanks.

No. For a while we won't be doing anything outside of the box, as I have other models that I'd like to use but can't because they aren't in the rules. Tough. However, you don't have to play Russians. You can also play Germans...when you and Carl fight it's just combat practice, and it'd be interesting to have two players on the same team. I know of a way to make it work and work well...

[NonSequitur]

Hey Tom, I have no problem letting you have the Tigers, they're just so shiny. Sigh, no Tigers for Carl . But Andrew, if you have other units just show 'em to me and if they are reasonable (reasonable here meaning not uber ridiculous death machines that properly did not fight in the war) I could see letting them in. I have a few units in mind my self that I wouldn't mind creating house rules for. After we all get better acquainted with the rule sets of course .

By the way, I could just get my fledgling Russians together for when me and Tom face off. Those pretty, pretty ISU 122's would nicely round out an assault oriented army when matched up with my T34-85. Also, Tom, did you get a chance to look over the Soviet Guards special rules, I think they add the extra kick you are seeking, for an extra price of course . The Guards were ,after all, regarded as the Soviet elite and generally were the better equipped/trained troops.

Here too are two websites that helped me make decisions on what to buy, model wise:
www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx for troops
www.onthewaymodels.com/ for tanks

[Leudast1215]

Eh... right not time or place... but roughly 25 million Russians died. less than half of those, roughly 10-12 million, were from the military, which shows what the Germans were good at: Killing civilians (like Anglo bombers).

I'm also not mis-representing Anglo support nor the strategies of the Russian military.

The Germans lost between 2-3 outa 5.5 million (roughly), more than half in other words, of their military losses in Russia. This would put the kill ratio of military men vs military men at closer to 1:4, 1:5 ratio that more accurately reflects the military losses. They were constantly out-numbered and out-gunned and often out-classed in the realm of Intelligence and Strategy. However, they were very good on a tactical level due to their Officer Corps and ability to communicate and cooperate to respond quickly to a developing crisis. The Russians cannot claim these tactical advantages, but had superior quantities of men and material to compensate for a lacking combat effectiveness on a 1:1 ratio with the German Army by fighting the war on the Strategic level rather than on a Tactical level like the Germans did. To give Germany the credit it's due, most of the Strategic errors made are entirely Hitler's fault.

Anyways, I'll have to see what the German Tiger 1/72 minis look like before I decide to swing in favor of the Russians or the Germans. Aesthetics will win out again in other words lol.

Besides, I've had a crush on the JagdPanther for years. Sexy. Russian tanks are butt ugly; if ironically so superior to German armor that they had to re-start their R&D by spitting out a 1936 design, the Tiger I, then spitting out another (initially) broken design called the Panther just to level the playing field during armor engagements.

*sigh* poor Germany, you lost the war before it even began. If only you had the extra 6 or so years your plan originally called for so the Kriegs Marine could've done something other than pose as target practice for the Anglo Navies.

Oh and thanks Carl I'll look at em' and make my decision. I also found the new website for this game so I have the rules; took me forever though.

LOL, I just realized I think I have two 1/72 (or close to it) scale open topped German self propelled anti-tank guns that I used as self-propelled artillery unit for my Genestealer Cult rules. Woohoo.

[Pop goes the world]

Again, you are misrepresenting facts and statistics. You neglect to mention that the Germans fought on multiple fronts, and though the majority of their losses were in the east, the casualty totals you quote do not take into consideration German losses in the Balkans, North Africa, and Western Europe (not to mention that loss statistics on ALL sides largely speculative, and especially with Soviet records, often intentionally wrong). Whatever the case, it is a well-documented fact that Soviet commanders had little concern for the survival of their troops. There were entire NKVD blocking units employed to ensure other units did not retreat.

As for Lend-Lease equipment, yes, the Americans and British supplied a huge amount of supplies and vehicles, but (and this in nit-picking on my part) but not many uniforms. Jeeps, Stewart tanks, Bren Gun carriers, all kinds of stuff- but Soviet propaganda rarely shows that stuff because they wanted to represent purely 'Soviet' troops and equipment. If by 'better equipped' you mean 'more regularly supplied, you are correct.

The true success of the Soviet forces was their industrial capacity, which unlike the Germans, was not under day and night strategic bombing. Soviet equipment was crude, but easy to manufacture and worked well under adverse conditions (which is why Ppsh SMG's were so coveted by German troops, and why T-34 pulled out of swamps 60 years later still run). German equipment, while individually superior, was over-engineered and difficult to manufacture and maintain.

The main thing I took exception with during your first post was your assertion that the Russian 'horde' was a misnomer- while you strike upon certain elements, the Soviet forces were often thrown into meat-grinder scenarios, and whether human wave or not, many more Russian lives were thrown away than necessary (ie. the entire Oder-Vistula campaign was arguably completely unnecessary for Russian military success, and resulted in a manpower deficit for the Soviets). Your second post better represents historical realities, but you are still misrepresenting some elements of your argument.

I could go on, but I caution you to regularly question the validity of many western secondary sources in their treatment of the Eastern Front. Popular American history in particular very regularly misrepresents or misinterprets the Russo-German war, so be careful to question what sources they are using (if they are actually quoting primary sources at all).

[Leudast1215]

Actually I research this stuff for fun and my favorite sources are journals written after the war by survivors. I gots me one from a German Luftwaffe Ace, a Russian Tank Rider and Heinz Guderian. The Russian one was interesting cause it did show how often HQ could screw over Russian troops, but at the same the guy kept marveling to himself at just how fast/quickly German troops were willing to run away . I think he actually once looted a MP44 machine-pistol and it jammed on him. He literally got bitch-slapped by a officer and was handed a PPH sub-machine gun, which according to him, never jammed. You could also lay down with it, big bonus.

Though this actually supports the Russians lacking radios bit, he got into a lot of fist fights with rocket artillery formations for shooting up his people too much.

The training was an issue too in the armored divisions. He had to convince T34's not to run away when rifles shot at em'...

Btw as far as Russian Industrial capacity... It was significant, but the Germans produced comparable amounts of material and actually exceeded in some areas like Fighters. It's just that all the Russian industry went to one front; Germany's went everywhere. Anglo-aid did not contribute a significant amount of weapons (only 10% of Russian weaponry was from the Anglos), but they did provide Russia with the logistical capacity to move large #'s of men and material around to launch large offensives and therefore be able to sustain meat grinder battles to their advantage, like Kursk or Stalingrad. In other words, without Anglo aid, Russia would not have been able to react fast enough nor with enough forces to achieve the large offensives it did launch that broke the German army by 1944.

Ok we've gone way off topic and I like the German minis more than the Russian but will decide Thursday .

[Pop goes the world]

I never insinuated that the Lend-Lease agreement didn't literally save Russia's ass- without the vehicles the Americans and British supplied, there is no way they could have held off the German advance (hell, they actually had more Jeeps than the Americans did- you just never see pictures).

While personal memoirs are valuable and interesting sources, once again, you have to be starkly critical of their potential bias or potential to lie. It is funny how many Germans swear they were never hardcore Nazis, and deny they ever saw significant massacres of civilians or POWs. Likewise, Russian memoirs were usually commissioned by the Soviet government, and were specifically formulated to portray the Red Army as an unstoppable force full of heroic super-soldiers (again, without reference to massacres, rape, etc.) A memoir will always make it's author look good- I've never seen one that broke that mold. Likewise, they only offer a limited perspective on a very large war.

And you can't talk shit about the Sturmgewehr... the Ppsh was nice for spitting a ton of lead over a small distance, but the Sturmgewehr was the envy of every allied force (which is why they all switched over to assault rifles in the following years). I've fired both, and I can tell you that the Ppsh, while having an amazing rate of fire, jumps around like a bitch and you have to hold on to the magazine or it falls out (look at wartime pictures- everyone holds the magazine). The Sturmgewehr on the other hand handles like a dream, and it is far more accurate and versatile (especially at range). And you can totally lay down with it- it and every other 30+ magazine assault rifle. Not sure where you are getting that...

Getting back on topic- you guys should check out the 'Disposable Heroes/ Coffin for Seven Brothers' rules. They are cheap, available all over the internet, and they are really fun (and they will work well at 28mm scale).

[NonSequitur]

I've heard of the Disposable Heroes rule set before but I like the 1:72 scale minis better. I picked 20mm because it is significantly smaller, especially for the heavy tanks, and that is a plus, I can take both 40k and Operation Overlord with me on the same day (I walk to meetings). For a second 28 mm army complete with armored support I'd need to carry a second tackle-box with me at least. Plus, with smaller minis you can wage larger battles ;D. That and I have looked at the 28 mm ranges and they mostly looked to be metal or resin, and while not really expensive they are significantly more per model, tanks especially, and I wanted to be able to play a second miniatures game on the cheap.

[NonSequitur]

After the game Saturday I noticed several things in the rules. Sort of a good news, bad news, good news format. Good news, turns out the 76 mm Shermans you used had stabilizers, so they could assault and not suffer the -1 penalty. Bad news, I don't know if you knew that you could only take one super Sherman per platoon. Good news, after quickly thinking over your organization, you were still good, I just think that you only have one slot to increase your army. You could always add another Sherman and continue to add more units .

I am also considering the possibility to get some panzer grenadiers in some half-tracks rather than just purchasing a quad. I was thinking maybe 2x 251/1's and a 251/9, mmm... stummel ;D. I've been considering it for a while, but I just don't know about it. By the way, good game again on Sunday, I like playing with tanks .