1500 point (current) Imperial Guard

[Leudast1215]

At the request of Carl, here's another tweaked version of the list I proposed:

3rd edition codex Imperial Guard, 1497
Unit Type
Unit
Upgrades
Cost
HQ
Command Squad
Cameleoline
50
Troops (1)
Command Squad
Cameleoline, Power Weapon.
55
Troops (1)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86
Troops (1)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86
Troops (1)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86
Troops (1)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Flamer, Cameleoline.
82
Troops (1)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Flamer, Cameleoline.
82

Troops (2)
Command Squad
Cameleoline, Power Weapon.
55

Troops (3)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Troops (3)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Troops (3)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Troops (2)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Flamer, Cameleoline.
82

Troops (2)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Flamer, Cameleoline.
82

Troops (3)
Command Squad
Cameleoline, Power Weapon.
55

Troops (3)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Troops (3)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Troops (2)
Guardsmen (10)
Veteran Sergeant, Meltagun, Cameleoline.
86

Fast Attack
Sentinel
Heavy Flamer, Improved Comms
60

Fast Attack
Sentinel
Heavy Flamer, Improved Comms
60

Fast Attack
Sentinel
Heavy Flamer, Improved Comms
60
Doctrines:
1.Drop Troops
2.Close Order Drill
3.Cameleoline


I didn't realize that cameleoline was required to be bought for everyone as it wasn't in the equipment's entry.

This list changes the purpose of the army a lot from what I originally intended, but It should prove to be fun in practice with an all Deep Striking army with 3 reserve re-rolls a turn.

The Sentinels have Heavy Flamers simply to make them consistent and to fit them into the last;

I've also built this list to be sort of a general all purpose list too. Flamers relative worth jumped in 5th edition so that leaves Meltaguns to pop tough baddies/tanks and the flamers to deal with any and everything else.

I decided against any and all tanks because *current* Imperial Guard tanks vs. Tau tanks = Tau win unless the Guard go all mechanized. What's the point of fielding just a few tanks when Tau can gun em' down in 1-2 turns? By not fielding any I've just wasted a lot of the Tau's potential in tank busting and Railguns.

[NonSequitur]

The list seems much more viable now, again with the points, you have 3 extra points, not 18. Sounds like your in for three search lights . Also, cameleoline is under special equipment, says so right in the shiny CODEX ;D. Its really to bad you didn't have 9 points, could have dumped smoke launchers on the sentinels, so they could survive to attack in the next turn. Unless of course, you are planing to use their scout ability to do that flanking thing with the fifth ed. rules. And the railguns, at least the on hammerheads, can fire submunition, so its all good. You still haven't answered my question regarding the flamers on the suits, are they going to be your revised flamers or the meltas that I faced off against? I kind of would like to know about that sooner rather than later.

There still does seem to be a certain amount of chance in the landing of each individual squad, but that of course is unavoidable. You probably will get all of the platoons in by no later than turn 3. Getting rid of the rough riders definitely was a good idea. The heavy flamers on the sentinels, well lets just say high risk, high reward sums them up nicely.

The twenty something kill points are still a huge liability but with the cameleoline and some favorable cover, this army would be very competitive in a objective or capture ground type mission. With a little luck, it might stand a fair chance in a annihilation mission (favorable scatters and lucky hits would make a world of difference). Other than that, the list seems to be solid but pricey per squad. But I guess you are getting something purposeful for the points.

Might I suggest picking up the veterans doctrine and/or special weapon squads. Either of those could add some serious fire power at the cost of a capture capable unit. Veterans would be preferable in your army structure, seeing as they are a leadership 8 unit (it should be noted they would not benefit from close order drill). But three groups of five men and sergeant with melta bombs with three meltas at BS 4 could bring some serious hurt on your opponents for 98 points a piece. It would be another high risk/ high reward unit for your army for the trading in of one platoon of troops. Adding 6 more meltas at a higher ballistic skill for 17 guardsmen might be worth your while. It would also add more utility to the sentinels by turns 3 and 4. And it would allow you to get smoke launchers for your sentinels as well, with 10 points to add a power weapon and frag grenades to your HQ command squad for an even 1500. Just a thoughtful suggestion for you to consider .

[Leudast1215]

hehe, forgot to edit that last 18 out after throwing in a few power weapons for the heck of it. Why shoot a command squad when you can shoot a melta squad? then next turn, die Tau die!

My tweaked list that I faced you with and that you saw Friday evening does indeed have Flamers instead of Fusion Blasters; they're just not that good in Crisis Suits.

I considered the veterans, but I voted for the quantity. The veterans are still going to die just as easily as guardsmen and run away more easily to boot. They cost more and will have a giant "shoot me" sign written all over them so something like melta bombs would never even get used cause they'll die.

I'm not even sure smoke launchers are worth it. They're sentinels, they're sole purpose in this list is to out-flank and hit something with a heavy falmer, or if lucky melee a tank for fun . If they die, no biggy. They're spread out in the FOC to insure there's 1 or 2 kept safe in reserve to help the platoons get into action; their survivability is moot cause the moment the enter the table they're dead cause your opponent will shoot them to get rid of the comms, and comms still work in reserve.

Yeah it looks like this'll be pure a deep strike list. It's a gamble, but if you've been playing for a long time and don't get some wins in every now and then, then maybe it's the list or the way you're using it. Therefore, why not try something radically different and see what happens?

I basically created the list from hell that I, as a Tau player, would hate to fight against. Nate's Drop Troop guard scared the crap outa me; he made the mistake of investing too many points in Lascanon heavy weapon platoons instead of putting as many bodies onto the field as possible and giving said bodies punch with a Meltagun. If Nate had used this list in the game we played in our first league game, I'm confident he would've "boarded" me.

Btw, you're still cool with me borrowing your Cadians and me supplementing my own Cadians w/ some Dark Eldar proxies (probably necessary for #'s) right? I can just toss in my Dreadnought from the Black Reach box set to count-as a 3rd sentinel.

Obviously there will be a fair bit of proxying, but if it works the way I think it will, I should be able to beat the hardest list I've yet to come up with for my Tau using Imperial Guard.

I would still like to use said Imperial Guard list to fight you using my own Tau list so we both get to see what the grass is like on the other side to so speak ^_^.

[NonSequitur]

OK, I suggested the veterans because they would essentially double your melta count, from 9 to 15 not a full double but close to it when you factor in 9 of those 15 will have increased ballistic skill. Relying on the 9 meltas in your current list to win you the game is a huge risk, especially when, more often than not, the target of the melta will essentially not be effected by lasgun fire (tanks, super scary leaders, monstrous creatures, etc...). The veterans would up your raw fire power at the cost of man power and wouldn't waste so much las gun fire (16 shots per ten man squad plus the sergeants laspistol adding 1 or 2).

It just looks like if you lost three or more melta squads by start of turn three, well it would be a tremendous up hill battle for you for the rest of the game. The suits and the tanks could effectively kite you around the battlefield, of course assuming you don't somehow get them all in on turn two, get them all to hit, and get them all to kill their intended targets. In reality, the odds are you get 5 or so hits, if against infantry 4 wounds or tanks 3 chances to damage if more than six away and 4 if less than six inches. Add in possible cover results, and you have a recipe for disaster .

As a Imperial Guard commander who as seen dozens, if not a full hundred or so, of Guard battles, I must admit that this is the first list I have ever seen that doesn't have a single weapon with more than 24 inch range. Usually they at least have a few heavy bolters or multi-lasers at 36 or a squad of lascanons or missile launchers at 48 inches. Having no dependable long ranged fire-bases could very easily be the downfall of this list. It just seems you are assuming way too much risk by ignoring long ranged combat all together.

But who knows, you might be onto something. I just would never want to have to play as this army list against any other army, or even a Tau army with a different organization, it just seems too frail to take the punishment necessary to win a battle.

[Leudast1215]

I'm a Tau player, I fight, win and lose all of my games based off of the 12-18" firing zone. Ironically for being the army with some of the longer range weapons (Railguns) most Tau weapons have less range than armies that have lesser technology (fluff) and/or can actually melee. In other words, I'm used to the idea of fighting up close and personal cause it's how Tau are designed to fight despite their lack of melee ability. The closer I get to the enemy, the more damage I do and therefore the more put off my opponent is because Crisis Suits getting into Flamer range is not expected and playing in a way your opponent wouldn't expect is half the challenge.

I do agree this 3rd edition Imperial Guard list I've come up with isn't perfect and it can be ripped apart by some builds and mission types, but this is true for all army lists.

A Tau player's biggest nightmare is having too many targets to shoot at all at once. The trick with Tau is to use what relatively small # of shooting units you have and concentrate them on wiping out a couple units a turn. To actually wipe out a Guardsman squad, you'll have to concentrate fire from two Warfish or two Crisis Suit squads to wipe out just one 10 man unit for sure, especially with Ld9 Guard. If you don't, those innocent flashlights will move up and rapidfire something else or charge something for good measure.

In other words, the Tau player's ability to win will be determined by his army list and his ability to wisely employ target priority. With that many individual units posing a threat, thinking rationally about target priority is surprisingly difficult. Not only with regards to shooting meltaguns first (they could be out of range or in cover), but the units you leave alone (the innocent flashlights) will go on to claim objectives.

Of course, knowing my luck, half of my army will scatter and die the 2nd turn before they get to shoot lol.

[NonSequitur]

Hehehe... I know very well how the role of the dice can be the end of an army ;D. I just wanted to point out that the Imperial Guard lack the mobility of the Tau army has, those 12 and 18 inch weapons are on highly mobile suits and of course those fishes. The lack of a 36" range weapon in the Tau armory is made up for in the extreme mobility of the units that can use the weapons the Tau do have. The bulk of my fights happen at 24 inches which a suit or fish could easily move its weapons into.

From my experience, one round of fire from a three man crises team can put a guard squad under half, but most of those suits were the burst cannon/missile launcher combination ones who have more anti-infantry power at range. Even still that could be 40 or more Guardsmen a turn when everything else is factored in. That and your biggest Tau nightmare is handled by multi-tracker.

Also, I think it is safe to say every players ability to win is based on their ability to wisely chose targets to shoot or charge and their army list composition. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single army that can build a bad list and then ignore target priority commonsense and still win the game .

About those capturing guard squads, they could very well succeed. If I am stuck with the first turn, your squads don't hit until till end of two I only have 3 turns or so to kill them all, 50 plus per turn, to garrentee that kind of carnage is pushing it. I could definitely see the army drawing or winning any mission that requires to capture objectives or territory. Any thing else and it just isn't much of a threat in my oppinion.

[Leudast1215]

Annihilation missions are the bane of this list, true. Meh, best to hope to "board' your opponent and do a win that way. That's how I think at least because even my Tau have a relatively high # of kill points when compared to other armies.

Kill Points are so stupid...

The idea that Tau is a very mobile army is somewhat of an illusion. A truly mobile army is Dark Eldar, Eldar and Orks for the most part. In other words, they have fast vehicles and infantry that can move fast and/or fleet.

Tau Crisis Suits do have Jet Packs, but they're slower than normal Jump Infantry (especially when assaulting) and as a consequence they gotta stay relatively close to their targets. Tau Tanks are not Fast vehicles either, they can just move 6" and fire everything. Which is handy, but it does not make them any faster than a normal tank. Tau infantry are just infantry. The only real Jump Infantry in the army is Vespid, but they're.... enough said.

Tau are very good at skooting 6" and shooting stuff up. They are in actuality not any faster than an Imperial Guard list and why it can be very difficult to judge the movement of Devilfish carrying Fire Warriors for objectives cause you're relegated to moving 6" a turn more or at max 12". The other armies I mentioned can move 18" or even farther.

The other thing about Tau: The 6" assault move from Crisis Suits can be annoying, but the board is relatively small (especially in depth) and there's only so many places they can run before getting shot up by lasguns. Spread out your guard all over the place, and there's literally no where for them to hide. Same goes for the tanks. With a 12" max move they just can't run away from everything and if they do they're reducing their fire power therefore increasing the odds of a meltagun blowing it up.

Funny thing is that Crisis Suits are not designed to take on Guardsmen; They're the Tau's only heavy weapon team. Their targets are more light vehicles, high T creatures, etc... They're potential is wasted so horribly on Guardsmen lol, just like with Gaunts, Guardians, etc...

[NonSequitur]

I guess saying that the Tau are more mobile is a misnomer, I should have said that the Tau are capable of kiting normal infantry by moving 6 to 12 inches and still fire at the least a primary weapon system. The average Tau army has a lot more mobile fire power than most others.

It might not have the top speed of some, but its top firing speed is the same, few armies can say that practically every vehicle in their arsenal can move 12" and still shoot. Sure, it might not have a lot of raw speed (12" +) but the army doesn't need to slow down unless it absolutely has to. The army can keep moving to get into better positions to flank a force without losing a significant amount of firepower. I know you don't like the piranha, but isn't it a fast Tau vehicle?

A Imperial Guard army would have to invest heavily in armored fist squads, sentinels, hellhounds, and something like demolishers to be able to keep the pace and not lose too much fire power, and half of those units are seriously overpriced and they all cannot move 12" and shoot.

The simple fact is that Tau are mobile, just not fast. Speed isn't everything, being able to do something after moving is the most important part. The Tau are definitely much more mobile than half of the armies out there. They are also very adaptable in their firepower, of course, how much thats to the benefit of the average Tau player, well thats open to debate.

I guess I am interested in seeing this army in action. I still worry about the lists ranged firepower, but if you are comfortable with it, then I guess there is nothing more I really have to say on the subject.

[Leudast1215]

Oh I agree, Tau are far more efficient in adapting their army list to tailor to a specific opponent. Imperial Guard is technically more versatile, but far less efficient due to the 3rd edition codex where as Tau Empire is a 4th edition codex and is priced more appropriately with the point cost trends as a result. Fire Warriors are actually pretty cheap considering their gun. Kroot are not.

I'm comfortable with the Tau-esque short range shooty of the list I came up with. It's going to be fun either way ^_^.

Speaking of testing this list out, did you want meet up earlier on Thursday afternoon or something to do our test game? Technically I'm also available Wednesday afternoon after 3:00 PM and on Thursdays it's after 12:30 PM.