Reinventing the Wheel

[Pop goes the world]

So, today Privateer Press announced that it will be updating the Warmachine and Hordes systems to 'MK II,' which amounts to their first 'edition' switchover. The second editions of Warmachine and Hordes will launch in 2010, but in April of this year Privateer will start open playtesting of the Mk II rules with a playtest league. Obviously, we will want to play a part in this playtesting as a club, and offer our feedback accordingly.

According to Privateer, they are aiming to 'streamline' the existing system and provide 'greater balance' amongst units. Yeah... I recall some other systems doing this to limited levels of success...

Privateer claims that they do not want to retool the system for a different audience (a clear allusion to the GW system updates of the early 2000's), and that no units will go away. However, every single unit/model will get a rules update, and the point values of EVERYTHING will be adjusted. Hopefully this means that old, unused units like the Trencher chain gun and the Necrosurgeon will gain some actual functionality. Hopefully, this does not mean a whole-sale nerfing of every 'good' unit.

Just yesterday, Rios and myself were lamenting the nerfing of the Feralgeist model in it's FAQ-ing. I observed that the downside of having an active online community for a gaming system is that the company hears people whine and cry about shit too much, and the rules sometimes suffer for it. I truly hope that this playtesting in April does not become an exercise in 'My army is underpowered and everything else is broken.' I really hope Privateer takes a scalpel to their system as opposed to a hatchet, and that they only fix what is really broken and/or top heavy.

They have already announced a few changes. Some are good, like a streamlining of Warjack system damage. Warjacks will only be disabled once they loose ALL of their damage boxes, instead of three systems (like Warbeasts). I assume their damage grids might be somewhat changed (ie. less boxes), but this is a welcome change. Hence, a wreck marker is always a wreck marker, and not just a 'disabled' warjack.

Also, power attacks will have most of their penalties removed (making them easier to pull off and hence more desirable gameplay options), and Warjacks will have their MATs and RATs increased, likely to be more competitive against warbeasts. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but I guess it will make Warjacks more desirable as opposed to infantry hordes, and make them need less focus to hit high DEF warbeasts.

Units will get some significant changes too. There is no more 'tight, open, cavalry, etc.' formations- there is only 'in formation' and 'out of formation.' Also, all unit stats are getting streamlined in a yet-to-be-determined way, so there will apparently be less stats to remember... I am not sure what this means, but it has the potential to go really 40K. If we get into a situation where everybody just has a movement of '6,' I am going to get pissy. Hopefully, they are just removing the STR stat, which was largely pointless as it is almost always compounded with POW. Fingers crossed on them not screwing that up.

All you Merc players rejoice, for your Merc contracts will stay intact. Fortunately for you, the availability of Mercs to certain factions will not be reduced, and some Mercs will actually work for more factions than before.

I fear change, and am therefore hesitant to get behind this whole 'Mk II' thing. This being said, I want to register my reserved optimism that some of my models that have sat in the back of my drawers will actually be usable in the new edition (I'm talking to you, Necrosurgeon, Stalker Bonejack, and Guardian Warjack!). Being that the internet is full of crybabies, I really hope that this update doesn't get screwed up.

What do you think?

[Andrew]

I'm stoked about warjacks getting a helping hand. I love jacks more than infantry for a variety of reasons, so if they're getting a boost (even your deathjacks from hell) I'm cool with that.

If we get into a situation where everybody just has a movement of '6,' I am going to get pissy.

Me too. Don't like it one bit.

[Leudast1215]

I wouldn't mind contributing to any play testing as it'll give me an excuse to practice with Khador anyway. I'm glad that they're going to take a second look at their rules cause their system has gotten kinda clogged with too many new units and it's a good thing they're going to re-value everything in context of the environment the game currently exists given the entire game grew rather ad-hoc with new additions annually and balance was sacrificed as a consequence. A game called Warmachine should have Warjacks that you want to take like in Hordes with their Beasts.

[Pop goes the world]

A couple of obvious problems arise... chief amongst them being that Hordes: Metamorphosis is going to be pretty damn pointless. If you want it for the fluff, go for it, but otherwise you might want to hold off until April (as they will be releasing playtest rules for everything and you can get a better picture of how stuff is going to preform in the new system.

[ddaypunk06]

I like my jacks that don't hit and scatter...ask adam about my mule and mariner lol...took out a lot of troops. Melee jacks aren't the best however...specially merc ones...but thats me.

So a nice update shouldn't be bad.

AND, for those who like to playtest...(Tom)...or in other words BETA TEST...it will happen in April. They are calling it an Open Field Test. At least they announce i a year before its gonna come out...unlike GW. Oh yea ... your rule book will be updated to the new edition in 3 years...after you stop playing your army because its nerfed and non-competitive.

[Pop goes the world]

I am hopeful that not TOO much stuff will get nerfed completely... A few things i could see going away are Vilmon's ability to run and go impervious, an significant upping of the Centurion and Bane Knight point values, and turning the Stormsmiths' and Skarre's non-attacks into magic attacks of some sort.

Being that the guys who designed Warmachine also love and play the game, I can't imagine that they would try to nerf everything too hard. I just hope they take the opportunity to fix pointless old models, and models that only exist to deal with old rule exploits (like the Covenant of Menoth). I wouldn't worry too much.

Plus, Merc players have the most to gain, as it looks like you won't be losing any troop availability and you will be gaining some.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I really hope they do something about the stormsmith's attacks that shiza was a pain in the ass and didnt make sense....its not shooting but its not magic...it just is and therefore cant be stopped.

[Pop goes the world]

i think that is the kind of stuff that is going to go away... There is no reason the Stormsmiths and the Skarre Bomb shouldn't be magic attacks- They will still be really, really good, they will just be avoidable in the same way as magic attacks. Fuck, you could even make them auto-hits, but they need to be attacks of some type.

The other big change I would like to see is a more reasonable usage of Reach. If a model's weapon physically reaches 2" past it's base (Deathjack, etc.), there is no reason it should not have reach (Especially when the model's overhang makes it impossible to actually move it's base close enough to be in 1/2" melee range).

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I really hope they do change the Stormsmiths and Skarre Bomb. Both of those things are ridiculous. my problem wasnt that they were overly pwerful (though the skarre bomb is) it was that their is no defense against it. You could try to bring all these crazy guys with different rules to stop range attacks or magic attacks and in walks this cygnar douche-tastic space marine wanna-be lookin muther-fuker (incorrectly spelled on purpose) whos attacks are basically an innate Zues like power of calling down lightning on people...

Probably one of the only things in warmachine that would cause me to rant because I hate it that much. It is a horrible thing in an otherwise really awesome and Balanced (at least i feel it is) game.

Anyways hope it changes...looking forward to seeing the changes they make.

[typo]

I'm happy to hear it. When I started playing Warmachine (over five years ago...still seems so recent), I had some complaints almost immediately about the game. And two of them are listed in their proposed revisions, so I definitely get the sense that somebody at PP's been noticing the same troubles.

The fact that all models remain playable is great, great news, and I really think there's potential for this "MkII" to be a significant improvement. My only prayer is that they really put effort into making the rules more clear and concise when it comes to things like priorities and timings.

[ddaypunk06]

Yea I had a big problem with the stormsmiths too, however I haven't dealt with Skare too much that I can remember.

Nice on the point about Merc troops.

I also agree with reach...because something in my army obviously should get it...the Nomad...I know its just meant to be a cheap heavy model...but that is a BFS (Big Fucking Sword)! So take on a few points and give him reach!

[typo]

The Skarre bomb totally isn't unstoppable. I played that list quite a few times, and my success rate wasn't 100%. It's really only a powerful list the first couple times you face it, since it catches you offguard and hits so hard.

It's a one-trick pony, though, and if you survive the bomb itself, the list is usually out of gas.

I don't think there's much in the game that needs to be weakened, but there's a lot that I think should get strengthened.

[Pop goes the world]

I just think consistency is key. Everything needs to be 'something' (i.e. the aforementioned Skarre Bomb and Stormsmiths), but it doesn't need to go away. Plus, rules anomalies like Vilmon's running imperviousness could be put in check.

I agree that weakening things shouldn't happen. I really hope that specifically anti-warjack/warbeast stuff should be broadened to include both (ie. Skarre's Backlash should effect Warbeasts, etc). There can still be certain anti-jack and anti-beast stuff (like Sam Machorn and Saxon Orrick), but just make the other stuff more encompassing. It will level the two games out better.

Also- Scott, you totally need to come out and start playing Warmachine on Thursdays and Sundays! You are missing all of our fun leagues and stuff! We miss you!

[Pop goes the world]

Well, No Quarter #32 apparently details some of the changes that we will see in MKII (see some details here- www.privateerpressforums.com/index.php?showtopic=173627)

Of note- Bane Knights lose Shadowshift (unsurprisingly), but gain Vengeance, which is some ability that apparently other armies troops will have too.

Everybody is getting mechanics of some type (probably upgrades to existing units), plus every faction will get a new caster and 'jack

unit coherency is way different. Unit leaders no longer have special stats, but models are measured as being within cohesion as long as they are in his command radius. Plus, I think every unit will be able to field promote a new leader if the old one dies.

You can charge across rough terrain now (which both makes sense, and changes the whole game a lot), but probably at the normal movement modifier.

Shields and fists are fixin to be stronger, and 'jack point costs will be changed to be on par with units (whatever that means).

Apparently at certain point value games, your warcaster will be included for free, as long as you field jacks (I think)

There will be a damage typing system, so damage will be sourced to Electric, presumably Fire, etc.

So, some of these changes are welcome, but they will certainly change abilities and utility of existing models (i.e., the new Garlak Slaughterborne model can charge across rough terrain at normal penalties... like everyone else can now...). It will be interesting to see what models/units will be effected in the metagame.

[ddaypunk06]

All interesting changes. Maybe I can get a game in sunday for fun and we can try some of these suggested things.

[Pop goes the world]

I'll be happy to play Sunday, but I figure we should wait until we see all the changes together before we try anything. For a game with so many specific abilities, you change one thing and everything is going to be goofy.

[ddaypunk06]

True true, well the play test preview isn't that far off anyways so I can wait lol.

[typo]

Mar 9, 2009 14:30:14 GMT -6 Pop goes the world said:

Also- Scott, you totally need to come out and start playing Warmachine on Thursdays and Sundays! You are missing all of our fun leagues and stuff! We miss you!

Ludicrously late response:

Yeah, I know. I was really hoping to get out this semester, but I've been a bit stalled out for gaming lately.

I've been trying to focus on getting a playable version of Peacekeepers going, and so I haven't wanted to put much attention to getting my WM armies playable again. Hopefully I'll make some time soon.

[Pop goes the world]

We are doing the MKII playtest starting next week! You could get in on that action!

[Leudast1215]

I wouldn't mind helping out; assuming you're ok with the fact my minis will be primed at best? (maybe Drago will be finished, but it's a long shot given papers...)