Changes to My Imperial Guard List

[NonSequitur]

Well, I have been floating ideas about how to change up my Guard list to make it more competitive in Fifth Ed. Currently, in a 1500 pts. list I run:
-x2 Leman Russ w/ just a hull heavy bolter
-Leman Russ Demolisher with the same
-good old Hellhound of doom
-55 or so Guardsmen in a platoon with a power sword, x2 plasma guns, and a medic in the command squad and x3 plasma guns distributed among the squads
-Grenadier squad with a veteran sergeant with power sword and x2 plasma guns
-Armored fist Squad with some type of special weapon
-A chimera, usually attached to the Grenadiers unless I do take the Armored fist squad
-And last but not least, my command platoon with the command squad having a powerfist and a banner, sometimes carapace armor, x2 melta gun squads with x3 meltas apiece, and a heavy bolter squad with x3 heavy bolters

I have some alternate weapons back at home that I could insert/upgrade units with and there are some ideas I have been toying around with. These include taking my sentinel squadron again, possibly re-arming them with lascannons, putting smoke launchers on every vehicle (question, do smoke launchers now grant a cover save for the vehicle using them?), putting some missile launchers/auto-cannons in infantry squads I want to hold ground with, taking a veteran squad with either plasma guns or melta guns, and the possibility of re-arming either my two Russes and/or the Demolisher with lascannons. I'm also toying with using the Basilisk I have in some unforeseen role . I'm also considering conscripts with an independent commissar, sharpshooters for special/heavy weapon squads, and reviving my old power weapon commander. I just need some sound ideas, particularly on how to make my list competitive in a kill point mission with what I've already got. That and my tanks just really need a boost of some sort, what, I don't know .

Suggestions? Comments? Concerns?

[Leudast1215]

Is this for your current codex?

If so, squeeze a 100 point Basilisk in there.

I'd recommend leaving your Sentinels alone and let them have their Autocanons.

Would say don't spend much, if any points other than smoke launchers, on your big tanks so you can take more and the current ordinance rule negates their ability to shoot the other weapons anyway.

Would say that if you're going to use heavy weapon teams, opt for Autocanons, Missile Launchers and/or Mortars.

Clearly I don't like Lascanons in the current IG codex because they're expensive, 1 shot BS3 weapons on a T3 5+ armor save carrier. Barrage weapons got better in this codex anyway, so I'd say make use of them. Missile Launchers and Autocanons are always useful no matter the situation.

Would say abstain from taking Plasma guns and opt for Meltaguns. They have a shorter range, but they will not roast the carrier. Furthermore, if you want to be more balanced, take some very cheap Flamers and Grenade Launchers otherwise any decent # of enemy models will survive more or less unscathed.

Would also say do not gear towards fighting MEQ opponents. They're surprisingly few Space Marine players that regular our club in the first place and over-all the game has shifted away from them as the primary opponent to gear towards. Just because a weapon is not AP2 or AP3 doesn't mean it's not capable of flooring MEQs either.

My Tau stand as an example of this... Just 2 Plasma Rifles in 1500; even 2 Flamers for that extra crazy ^_^.

Btw when do you think you'll be around on Thursday at the earliest?

[NonSequitur]

I've got the flamers, I guess I could switch them out on the regular squads, hmm, do you have any thoughts on conscripts? I think I will take the sentinels but I need some one to careful explain how outflanking works for me to use them properly, I have a vague idea but I do not fully understand how table edges are chosen etc.... I could be free as soon as 1:00 but I do have some readings that I don't know if I can finish in the morning. I'll look over them and hopefully post somewhere when I will be there, absolutely I will be there at three or so. Seeing as you don't like lascanons, would you suggest lascanons on the Russes, that I am personally unsure about and would like opinions on the most.

[Leudast1215]

In my opinion Lascanons on the current Leman Russ are a waste due to the Ordinance rule.

Conscripts would work as cheap scoring units, walking cover saves if they have a Commisar.

Out-Flank works in that you keep the unit in reserve and roll for it normally. Then you roll a D6: 1-2 is left side, 3-4 is right side, 5-6 you choose the short board edge. You measure 6" from the board edge (or however far you want to move) and place the edge of your base directly on/behind that maximum movement distance. In other words, you don't move after you place your unit on the board; it moves onto the board, so the max distance you can move onto the table is the max distance your unit can move.

I might be at OBG around 1:00 or 3:00 PM depending on how my Office Hours with a professor goes.

[NonSequitur]

Ok, list is looking more like this now:
-x2 Leman Russ
-Leman Russ Demolisher
-Hellhound
-Headquarters Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline and standard bearer)
-Heavy bolter team x3 Heavy bolters
-Sentinel Squad x2 Sentinels w/ autocannons
-Platoon Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline x2 plasma guns and a medic)
-x2 Guard squads w/ flamers
-Guards squad w/ nothing
-Grenadier squad w/ x2 plasma and a vet sarge w/ power weapon
-Conscript platoon with 50 men
-Independent Commissar w/ power sword
[both officers and the Commissar have melta bombs]

What I need is anti-tank and counter assault infantry. I can stand to lose one tank or the sentinels to a squad that starts to smash through my lines but I can't take losing two or more tanks in close combat by turn 2 or 3 in every game . There really isn't much I can do about that except put the Guardsmen in front of the Leman Russes or put the Russes behind cover (which would effectively negate their one current strength, ap3 boom-stick death), which means the Guardsmen will drop like flies leaving me with squat with which to fight with or hold ground with, or more likely shouting out "Free kill-points for everyone!", double grrrr. I guess I could stick the conscripts in front of the Russes but that would just seriously hinder the Russes mobility, at least forward. I can drop 20 conscripts to get a melta gun special weapon squad, but it wouldn't stand up to any kind of fire power trying to make it to its target on foot . Could fool around with points and try to create a veteran squad with x3 meltas and a chimera for transport, but that sounds like a risky, point sink seeing as they would die easily and not be able to hold objectives . I might try to stick the basilisk back in (replacing the demolisher), but I am worried that it will just get killed way to easily and/or lose its ap3 to cover saves etc... .

What I need are, well, probably sentinels with lascannons, at least for right now. I need a mobile, fire power base that hits its intended target around half the time, and thats sentinels now that my ordinance both refuses to hit on target when I need it and then scatters 4+ inches in the wrong direction . This has me even considering Ogryns , "shivers", and I hate how those things look and I don't entirely like how they preform on the battlefield (they lack mobility and strength at the same time, yes they can get a Chimera and they can have 10 men, but not both at the same time) and they, again, can't capture objectives . 250+ points that can't hold objectives and only have a 5+ save just is not worth it. I could really use some fire power(strength not amount) improvement suggestions that doesn't involve 6 Guardsmen legging it toward an objective then praying to the Emperor that they hit/penetrate.

After further thought, those Ogryns are looking more attractive, utility wise that is . For 265 points, I could get a solid close-combat unit to back up one column of tanks, the problem is, when compared to other 250+ point units, they are only mediocre and the problem of "Where the heck do I get 265 points from in my list?" comes up. I can't just drop a tank, I would have to drop a tank and some infantry and some upgrades to be able to field them, and that sounds like I am killing to many of the reasons I field a Guard army in the first place. If only everything was cheaper, then I would not have to sacrifice as much. "Sigh" oh-well, I guess I can wait for the next Codex to drop points and introduce new stuff, but I could really use it now and preferably two or so months ago .

"PERSONAL RANT" I do not understand (from a gamers point of view, I know why from an economic/business point of view) why Games Workshop insists on creating a situation where, after a rules change or shift in thinking/list construction, so many armies are left out to dry while they have to wait their turns to get shiny new Codices. Why don't they just release all the Codices at once so they all benefit from the same rules at the same time and there is no more "my army doesn't benefit from the new rules because the Codex is so old/wasn't built with 'such and such' edition in mind" going around. They can spread out model releases for all I care, take their five-yea- plan-whatever approach with the miniatures, but give us (the wider gaming community) up to date rules and abilities in the mean time. "PERSONAL RANT OVER"

Sorry, I just had to vent that, grrrr... Games Workshop grrrr... .

[Leudast1215]

Meh, I enjoy a good challenge so I make the best of GW's lack of realistic release schedule. However, they've been getting a lot better and diligent about it recently for which GW isn't receiving any credit at all.

I've personally observed that you have a habit of moving your Leman Russes forwards towards the enemy. it's got a 48" gun, just sit in the back and you'll buy yourself a few turns to save against melee. Most armies couldn't get something that far across the board in 2-3 turns (unless you're playing against Orks) so if your tanks are constantly getting melee'd to death, your playing them wrong. Even in my latest league game, I purposefully used the vulnerability of my tanks in melee and sacrificed them to pull a bunch of Orks out of position so I could finish em' off more easily later. Use the inherent CC weakness of vehicles to your advantage: Since a Leman Russ as a giant "beat me with stick" sign on it, position such that an assault will leave the offending unit to die to everything in your army next turn (what I do).

Leman Russes are not your problem and even in the current dex they're not bad tanks at all. I know you feel anti-tank is an issue, but the only reliable anti-tank I have as a Tau player are my Railguns; two of which can be easily shaken, one of which is easily instant-killable.

I'd recommend ignoring your opponents tanks for the most part and just blast everything else because that's what Russes are good at. Even I as a Tau player, reputed to have some of the best anti-tank (debatable) often ignore vehicles in favor of blasting more vulnerable stuff. After all, I've rolled far too many 1's on my Railgun and lamented over the exposed infantry squad the Submunition could've wiped out.

Again I wouldn't recommend using Lascanons on your Sentinels cause they're too pricey and have a giant "shoot me" sign on them. Just use Autocanons and out-flank them. Heck, after you shoot the tank, run up and kick it to death. It's what my Crisis Suits have learned to do ^_^. Stupid Battlewagon wont die to shooting? I beat you to death! Muwahahaha!

The solution to protecting your tanks from melee in a worst case scenario is not surrounding the tank with infantry; it's employing smart deployment using your infantry squads out in front as a break water and to funnel any dedicated CC anit-tank squad into kill zones for the tank hiding further away.

I mean I recognize your frustration, especially after getting unlucky versus Demonhosts (surprisingly good units), but there are solutions to your problems and a lot of them can be solved with smart deployment, baiting (intentional sacrificing of something to get something you want dead into the open), or something as simple as a refused flank. I won my 2nd league game cause of a refused flank, and I won my 3rd one (asides from not having a 6th turn...) by doing what Hannibal did: surrounding a numerically superior force by sucking it into a funnel and blasting it from two different sides. In all fairness to Steve, It would've drawn had there been a 6th turn... but my lucky 1 popped up on the turn die hehe.

[Andrew]

-x2 Leman Russ
-Leman Russ Demolisher
-Hellhound
-Headquarters Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline and standard bearer)
-Independent Commissar w/ power sword
[both officers and the Commissar have melta bombs]
-Heavy bolter team x3 Heavy bolters
-Sentinel Squad x2 Sentinels w/ autocannons
-x2 Guard squads w/ flamers
-Grenadier squad w/ x2 plasma and a vet sarge w/ power weapon

All fine.

-Guard squad w/ nothing
-Conscript platoon with 50 men

Why no special weapons? Flamers or grenade launchers increase the squads' effectiveness and are cheap.

-Platoon Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline x2 plasma guns and a medic)

I thought you could only have medics in the HQ command squads?


- Smoke launchers go by what rules are printed in the codex; hence, for you, it should be only auto-glancing.

- With no ranged AT, put lascannons on sentinels. Despite missing a lot, at least you'll have SOMETHING.

- Better yet, add in heavy weapons to guard squads that won't be moving.

- For sentinels coming on the flanks, either autocannons or heavy flamers will work well for nailing side armors and infantry clustered around objectives on the flanks.

Basically, I could roll you with a single land raider at this point (and I have done so previously!). You have no meltaguns or lascannons, while the demolisher cannon will be disabled in my first turn or second at best. Meltabombs are great if the vehicle doesn't move, or isn't a walker. Everything else will only glance, miss, or not even scratch the paint.

[NonSequitur]

Thanks for the suggestions Andrew, made the switch on the sentinels a few minutes ago ;D. I know that the Guardsmen squads should have some sort of weapon, I was considering taking 2 squads with missile launchers and 3 with flamers, I may just scratch most if not all of the conscripts in trade for the weapon upgrades. Hmm... 140+6+20 yep I could get it to work. And the medics can be taken in any command squad, only the standard bearer is limited to the HQ command squad. I also checked prices on Ogryns, they are ridiculously overpriced, $20 bucks a piece, $200 for a squad of ten . Out of curiosity is their any single force organization slots that cost more than that ?

About the Leman Russes, well, I would keep them back, but there is often a lot of cover on any given board and the Russes current strength is that it is AP3. If I can't get a line of sight that does not pass through cover, then my opponent will still get at least a 4+ cover save. That and the Hellhound and Demolisher need to move forward to get any shots off on turn 1/2, turn 3+ means that their will be charges and if I waited that long to start using my two strongest units, well that does not sound like a good idea to me . By turn 3, any fast jump infantry, bikes, and transported infantry, which practically every player in the store has at least one of, can manage an assault by 3 .

So here is the revised list:
-Headquarters Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline+Carapace and standard bearer)
-Sentinel Squad x2 Sentinels w/ lascannons and enclosed+searchlight
-Independent Commissar (w/ Power weapon+Carapace)
-Platoon Command Squad (Power weapon+Iron Discipline+Carapace x2 plasma guns and a medic)
-x3 Guard squads w/ flamers
-x2 Guard squads w/missile launchers
-Conscripts x20
-Grenadier squad w/ x2 plasma and a vet sarge w/ power weapon
-Hellhound
-x2 Leman Russ +searchlight
-Leman Russ Demolisher


^Tom: As a player who has had a battle cannon in practically every list I have ever built, used it practically every game, and seen the list through 3 editions of the game, I can tell you the battle cannon and the Leman Russ in general ain't what they used to be. To say that anti-tank isn't an issue is easy when you can reliably kill mine when you need to but I can't effectively return fire any more, well strength 8 ain't what it used to be either . Also, unlike some armies, I don't have any units at my disposal that I could use to bait an opponent out into the open with, my Russes/Hellhound are about it, and half of them have to come to the enemy as it is any ways . A guardsmen squad as bait is a waste of potential fire power and practically a free kill point or the loss of an all important scoring unit. Also, to bring the rest of my army to bear on the assaulting unit(s), there would either be a massive amount of cover saves that I confer onto my opponent by shooting through my own men, or risk hitting myself by shooting my own guys with ordinance, probably from the side, which I can and probably would penetrate knowing my luck . And having some strength 10 AP1 would be great to have sitting around, it would actually be nice not to have to use it but know that it is practically untouchable from range and therefor a fall-back unit when it is finally needed.

I can safely say that your assumption about the sentinels being useless is a over-exaggeration, three games against Frizzel's Daemon-hunters and his x3 lascannon sentinels have a solid record of smashing my armor regardless of cover-saves, front armor etc... . There is also a difference between a good challenge and a serious design flaw hurting game play . Sure if I had $300+ I could probably fix the shortcomings of my list. Add some new weapons teams possibly a Ogryn squad and definitely another grenadier squad with x2 plasma guns and a hellhound and another sentinel maybe even a second chimera. But I am not willing to spend that much extra to fix an army that was not this broken when I started using it. In fact, it was pretty good even when I hadn't much of a clue how to use it back when I began in 3rd edition.

Sorry if this comes off sounding a little bit hostile Tom, but I'm just worked up over the old style of Guard play, which my playstyle is rooted in (where you could just sit and shoot and still stand a decent chance against even a close combat army and taking a Russ didn't limit your fire power more than it added to it), having serious problems and that the Leman Russ isn't the MBT it was when I started playing . I don't mean to say that my army will not vastly improve with the new Codex, because it will as soon as I can take the Vanquisher as dedicated at again. But for right now, there just are not any viable options given what I currently have.

[Leudast1215]

No big deal, that's what forums are for to share your ideas and in many cases to vent your frustration. I'd just advise that the grass is not always greener on the other side cause I'd happily trade some units from the Tau codex (broken like Sniper Drones, Piranhas, Gun Drone squadrons, Vespid, Ethereals, special characters, etc...) for units in the Imperial Guard codex (Sentinels, Grenadiers, a REAL guardsman squad with special/heavy weapon options, comisars, Basilisks, Leman Russes, Ogryns for a decent CC unit...).

I actually want to take generic guardsman because they're so cheap and useful as a utility unit with naked lasguns no less and I'm still miffed I cannot use them in the League game. They'll still be useful even retaining their 6 point cost value when the new IG codex comes out.

I think that your current build looks pretty competent, so therefore it's just up to play testing and becoming comfortable with how it works. For what it's worth, it might be interesting to test it out on me (perhaps even with me playing as the IG and you as Tau) to see how it works against a pretty competitive Tau build. Heck, you can even beat me in CC .

[NonSequitur]

Well at this point the grass is green pretty much everywhere except the Necron hill, which is verymuch less greener than my Guard hill. But when the new Codex comes out: Green, Green, Its green they say on the far side of the hill, Green, Green, I'm going away to where the grass is greener still www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWToT-vdU5k;D. All hail the mighty new Imperial Guard Codex!*


*As soon as the blasted thing finally comes out.

[Andrew]

Looks good. Still no smoke launchers? When you tanks are getting stunned/shaken, why not protect them for a turn with smoke launchers? Or when advancing (like with the demolisher and hellhound) why not protect them from a turn of shooting until you get into range? The auto-reduce to glancing is immensely powerful, and I'd use it til the cows come home. Unfortunately, space marines no longer have cows in their codex...

[Leudast1215]

Why would you want cows when you can have order around a herd of sheep that smite your enemies by spontaneously combusting in their face?

[NonSequitur]

Well I tried the new list against Talon's Eldar, and the sentinels ROCKED ;D! Took down a warwalker and a fireprism, not bad not bad at all. Poor missile launchers totally missed for 3-4 rounds of shooting and were out of range for another two, sigh luck and better deployment could have changed that scenario. Over all seams ok, like to see the list in action against some of the scary Ork or Space Marine lists that are so common these days, love to see how they run against your Tau Tom. Hopefully this list will be significantly better than normal .

[dragonbait]

If you want to give it a run against me next week for the league, I'd be game...it's 1750 night fight....so def bring your searchlights!

[Andrew]

No! I'm challenging you! Ack!

[NonSequitur]

I really don't care who I fight as long as I get a game in .