Preliminary Black Templars 1500pt List

[Pop goes the world]

As some of you know, I am starting to piece together a Black Templars Space Marine army. I am only looking to go up to 1500 points.

I haven't bought much yet (Just some scouts for Neophytes and some Sword Brethren for conversions for characters), but I put together a 1500 point list to plan out the stuff I still need to acquire. I am settled on Black Templars despite the myriad wonderful chapters out there, so factor that into your advice.

Anyway, I wanted to run my list past the "experts" in order to get some constructive criticism. For the record- some of my choices were made for aesthetic reasons (I like the models), but I would like to put together a decent army.

Adam's 1500 Black Templars List (roughly)
-Marshal (80 point commander- Unsure about Wargear- suggestions?)
-Emperor's Champion (90 point compulsory HQ choice- does not take up force organization slot)
-Venerable Dreadnought w/ Power Fist, Heavy Flamer, and Assault Cannon (135 Points)
-Crusader Squad with 10 Initiates and 5 Neophytes- add Plasma Gun, Power Weapon for SGT- (226 Points)
Land Raider Crusader with Blessed Hull for Crusader Squad (290 Heavy support choice)
-Crusader Squad with 10 Initiates- add Plasma Gun and Power Weapon (176)
-Rhino for Crusader Squad w/ extra armor (55)
-Assault Squad with 10 marines, add Melta Bombs, Power Fist for SGT and 2 Plasma Pistols (260)

That is about it... I still have some free points available (about 100), but I don't know what I want to do with them. Do I want to Deep Strike my Dreadnought (with a sweet ass drop pod)? Do I want to add a command squad with my commander? Where would those points be best spent?

Also, are my weapon selections for my units good ones? I am thinking that my Crusader units will be anti-infantry, close combat units (all with melee weapons and bolt pistols), while my Assault Squad and Dreadnought will be the heavy lifters, tackling heavy infantry and vehicles.

I am curious if I don't have enough anti-tank support. I haven't played Space marines in years, so I don't know how well they hold up in the new metagame.

Any advice or shared experiences are very welcome.

[Rios]

Adam, it looks like a good list, but you need to remedy some points. The Emperor's Champion is 90+ the points for the vow. I always use the 50 pt Accept any challenge vow because everyone with preferred enemy in the army is just stupid good. I think a drop pod would be good for the Dreadnought, mine always gets shot down quickly, plus our drop pods are the cheapest at 30 pts. As for the marshal, you can go any way you like with them, but lean towards CC oriented, maybe with some melta bombs.

Also take away the holy shell on the crusader its only useful against eldar and frees up 25 pts


I'll run by ya some of my lists Thursday if you're there.

[Pop goes the world]

I was thinking of making the marshal close combat oriented... I am just not sure how yet. Lightning claws, maybe?

Also, I left the vows out on accident. In my preliminary list, I have the 50 point vow written down. Looks pretty sweet.

I am thinking of factoring in a drop pod along with a small command squad (standard, apothecary, sgt) to bolster the commander in combat and make him a harder target. What say you?

[Rios]

I've never been a fan of command squads. I usually take one less guy in my transports and add the Champion or Marshal in the vehicle with the unit. A full squad of marines with 4 scouts and the Emperor's Champion pouring out of a Crusader is a very devastating thing in a game. 40 something close combat attacks with re-roll (except for scouts)

Lightning claws are nice cause you get to re-roll to hit cause of the vow and to-wound cause of the claws, that's what I'm doing.

[Rios]

My New List I'm gonna try in the tournament next month. Very Mobile list. Changed a few things to balance it out.

Emperor's Champion -140 w/ Vow
HQ: Marshal -146 w/ lightnin Claws, Holy Hand grenade, frag grenade, melta bomb, bionics, terminator honurs
Troop: 10 Initiates195- w/ frag grenades, Meltagun and power fist
land raider crusader-265 (EC in here)
Troop: 10 Initiates195- w/ frag grenades, Meltagun and power fist
land raider crusader-265 (Marshal in here)
Heavy: Predator-154 w/ Tri-lascannons, extra armor, serachlight, smoke launchers
Heavy: Vindicator -139w/ extra armour, searchlight, smoke launchers. and dozer blade
Total: 1,499

[Pop goes the world]

Hmmm... I like what you've done there. Speedy and efficient.

I hear what you are saying about the commander, but fielding a sacred standard (+1 combat res around him) and apothecary seem like nice additions. Plus, i can't figure out a way to get my commander stuck in the fight with only one Landraider (and I'm not sure I want that many eggs in one big, explosive basket).

Here is what I am thinking...

Emperor's Champion w/ Vow Accept Any Challenge- 140
HQ-Marshal w/ Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Holy Hand Grenade- 106
HQ Squad w/ Apothecary, Champion, Plasma Gun, and Sacred Standard- 154
Elite- Venerable Dreadnought with Assault Cannon, Power Fist and Heavy Flamer-140
In a Drop Pod- 30
Troops- Crusader Squad of 10 Initiates with a plasma gun and power weapon + 5 Neophates- 226
In a Land Raider Crusader- 260
Crusader Squad of 6 Initiates w/ plasma gun and power weapon- 112
In a Razorback w/ Twin lascannons- 70
Fast- Assault Squad of 10 w/ power fist, Melta Bombs, and 2 Plasma Pistols- 260

It is not as mobile as yours, as the Champion and the HQ would be lagging behind the main body, but that doesn't seem like a bad thing. Theoretically, the HQ and Champ would be getting into the fight to support whatever melees the main body already started.

I think part of me just wants to build and paint a sweet-ass command squad. Might it make sense to play with points in order to give them Infiltrate? Or will that leave them with their dicks in the wind?

Also- two quick questions-
I see you gave a lot of power fists and melta guns out- do those make more sense than the power weapons and plasma guns? I am thinking anti-infantry, but does having that little bit of anti-tank come in handy, or is it never enough?

Also, I don't see the drop pod under the 'transport' option for the dreadnought. Can he just take the drop pod automatically, or do you have to structure it in some goofy way?

[Andrew]

Plasma guns are good heavy infantry/monstrous creature killers, but when you fire them you cannot charge. In 5th edition (same with 4th I believe), if you shoot with any Rapid Fire weapons you cannot charge, as it's more they're laying down a hail of fire instead. They are also not so good in the anti-tank business, and since the meta-game is to have plenty of transportation for squads, you're going to want tank crackers. Meltaguns, though only 1 shot, still allow assaulting after shooting (the meaning of Assault 1). Plus, at close range (where you army is likely to be) they get the extra dice for damage on vehicles.

does having that little bit of anti-tank come in handy, or is it never enough?

It's usually never enough; I'll typically have nasty tanks alive by the end of the game and few marines. As for long range AT power, you're lacking as much as I tell Rios he always does, but with the BT power being up close and personal, it's harder to deal with. I like the razorback; it doesn't look like there's room for a second one (for your command squad) but if you could that'd be better. Especially when vs Imperial Guard, one battle cannon shot from Carl's plethora of tanks, for instance, can just kill the entire unit, apothecary or not. Hidden in a plastic box will at least keep them alive a turn longer.

Might it make sense to play with points in order to give them Infiltrate

Dang, you still get that? That would make more sense than walking the whole way, as that's dick in the wind to the max.

Power fists are good for squashing T4 multi-wound models that aren't immune to instant death. However, they do get one less attack for swinging a fist, as it's slow and GW wanted to nerf them. Say you're fighting more marines. You'll get two attacks (3 when you charge, I think) with it. With the reroll to hit you're likely to kill two. With a power sword, while you get the extra attack, you're only wounding on 4's instead of 2's, dropping the likelihood of getting a kill. When fighting basically anything that's not a MEq (Marine Equivalent, ie toughness+armor save if you didn't know), you'll want that power sword because you're only wounding on 3's. It's really dependent on the local players which is better, such as with us many/most players prefer to use other races, like IG, Eldar, Tau, and other squishy bits, though a few of the new players roll with marines.

[Pop goes the world]

Thanks, Andrew. I think I am going to go with the meltaguns. Sounds more practical.

I'm still not sure if I am going to do power weapons or power fists. I guess it is a trade off either way.

Did anybody know the story with drop-podding the Dreadnought? I am right in thinking I can do that, right?

[Rios]

meltaguns and fists are always my way to go....and the drop pod rules say that it can be used to transport a dreadnought

[Andrew]

The squad in the razorback could probably actually keep the plasma gun. You might also want to give that unit a heavy weapon. In this way, the squad can provide ranged fire with bolters, plasma gun, and heavy, getting into the razorback to advance or capture objectives as necessary. I've always found Rios' 5 man units quite a pain.

[Pop goes the world]

So have the small squad be the long-range pain in the ass unit? What heavy weapon would you recommend?

[Pop goes the world]

Okay- revised list... applying all advice...

HQ-
Marshall w/ Iron Halo, Lightning Claws, and Holy Orb- (140)
Emperor's Champion w/ Accept Challenge (140)
Elites-
Venerable Dreadnought with Assault Cannon, Power Fist, Heavy Flamer (135)
Drop Pod for Dreadnought (30)
Troops-
Crusader squad of 9 Initiates w/ Power Fist and Melta Gun and 5 Neophytes (219)
Land Raider Crusader with smoke and blessed hull (278)
Crusader Squad of 6 Initiates, w/ Lascannon and Plasma Gun (117)
Razorback w/ Twin Linked Lascannons (90)

... which leaves me with 86 points... Which is just enough to buy NOTHING.

I suppose I could strip Blessed Hull off of the landraider and throw in a Chaplain or something... Maybe put him with the Assault Squad with a jump pack?

Advice?
Fast Attack-
Assault Squad w/ Melta Bombs, Power Fist and 2X Plasma Pistols (265)

[dragonbait]

Yeah like Rios said before, the blessed hull is really only good against eldar/dark eldar with their lance weapons. With the fast attack squad, I personally am not a fan of giving them plasma pistols. It's not that they're not good, but I usually end up being able to use the 30 points better somewhere else.

[Andrew]

Contrarily, I like plasma pistols on assault squads. It gives the extra oomph before an assault, especially when you're about to charge 2+ save infantry or scary monstrous creatures. Basically, the less wounds you have to deal with, the quicker it dies in combat.

The BT crusader can carry 16 right? I'm not sure, and if not then a character is walkin'...

I'm also not sure on the costs for your weapons, but what about swapping the lascannon for a plasma cannon (deep strikers killer), dropping the blessed hull, and getting a second dreadnought with lascannon?

[Pop goes the world]

As for the transport, the crusader only carries 15. I didn't think I could put the emperor's champion in a transport with a unit. How does that work? Could I have my commander, the champ, and the unit of crusaders in the same landraider?

As for the second Dreadnought- would you just deploy him in the rear and have him crazy go nuts with his lascannons? Or drop pod him too?

[Rios]

Yes. IC can start in a transport with a unit...i always do it...and no just keep the dread in the background w/ Las and missile arms

[dragonbait]

They can start in the vehicle with the unit, as long as it doesn't exceed the capacity.

[Andrew]

Right. You can have one unit any any number of independent characters in a transport. Definitely keep the dreadnought in the back.

[Rios]

I've got a new mech list at 1500 and still trying to flesh out my troop list to be effective at 1500.

[ddaypunk06]

I always drop one of my dreads behind enemy lines. He has a MM and HF though...so I can easily take out an armored foe the first turn. For a LC/Miss Dread I would keep him back and advance him behind your lines.