mmm, toaster frying

[Andrew]

Well I just figured out a good way to wipe away Sean's scarab swarms. Plasma cannons! Each wound causes 2 wounds (due to vulnerable rule) and each wound kills a base (due to instant kill rule). Thus, for each wound I cause 2 bases are removed, huzzah! Now I just need to pack more in my army when fighting him ;D.

[thor5768]

hmmm...i have always been aware of the vulnerable rule causing 2 wounds. but are you sure that just dosnt mean 2 wounds instead of 1 wound to each specific model. either way 1 wound or 2, it wipes out the model. i know this has come up in other battles regarding the vulnerable rule but no one has ever interpreted it quite the same way you just did

[bloodangellh]

After reading how the rules are worded, I don't think it would work either. The tyranid implant attack rule also states that each unsaved wound counts as 2, but this cannot physically kill 2 models.

[bloodangellh]

Yep, goes in this order:

1. Roll to wound
2. saving throws
3. vunerable to blasts, takes 2 wounds off, then
4. Instant kill removes that base

[Andrew]

You'd think. Your order is right Luong, but it still works. Each wound would deal an instant kill. You'd deal the first wound at str 7 and kill the base, and the second wound would go to another base and kill it, being still str 7. It doesn't specify that second wound would have to be on the same base. And, going by the writing that whole bases must be removed where possible, it would make sense. Right?

[siriq]

thats wierd i dont i know i can see both sides here

[bloodangellh]

I just see it as, one base takes a save. It fails it's save, so it takes 2 wounds, not it takes one wound and another one transfers. I too can understand how this is very ambiguious the way it is worded. And like I said, the only precedent I know for this is the tyranid implant attack. Worded exactly the same, and has been ruled that you can only kill one thing with each attack. We should decide on an answer so if this ever comes up (With any vunerable to blasts targets) we'll know what to do.

[thor5768]

ok ok ok......andrew, i challenge you to a duel sir

[Andrew]

guh...argh! Bretonnian blood requires me to accept! Okay, so we say it can go either way. I agree with what you're saying Luong, it's just after the first wound, the base dies from insta-, and second wound doesn't disappear if there's someone in the squad that can take it; it goes to the next.

But, we can try a game with it, or only part of the game with it. If it seems too over-powerful, then we shall go back to the other. Basically, the only weapons that don't cause this confusion are frag missiles, frag grenades, and whirlwind launchers. Everything else is str6 or higher.

1500 pts? Not today though, must study for two exams tomorrow.

[siriq]

ok guys i posted this delma in another forum

[RedSparrow]

While I think it would be really cool to be able to wipe out a whole squad of scarabs with a single shot, I think the spirit of the rules had intended that each base take two wounds itself because they are multi-wounded creatures. It's just a lucky coincidence that a single wound of that strength will insta-kill the base and the second wound be wasted.

I'd actually like to hear what other forum's opinions on this might be. It's an interesting conundrum. (yay, I can use big words with spellchecker at my side)

[Andrew]

As did I, amongst a bunch of tournament players; I figure they'd know better than I. They're debating it now too. We'll see. Tune in next day!

Ha, I suppose I could just ask on the GW forum, where there are game writers and the like.

[thor5768]

I say you ask Necron players. After all, Necron players and their lords do not know how to lie!

[Andrew]

Of course not. You're all slaves! aahahaha. And the whole lack of speech thing would do it too... =P

[siriq]

Quote from: BGB pg 26
When a unit suffers wounding hits, each will affect a different model- you canot claim that all the hits strike a single model.
This rule means that you cannot apply the wounds to the same model. Thus each wounding hit you inflict then counts as two, and each affects a different model. Thus you are correct.
The interesting part (which has no effect on your situation) is since the rule says models, the following rule by RAW becomes impossible to use. Not that I advocate playing this way but since

Quote from: BGB pg 28
When a unit contains several multiple-Wound Models, and those models take wounds, you must remove whole multiple wound models from the unit as casualties where possible- wounds may not be 'spread around to avoid removing models.

Obviously, the intent and result of this rule is obvious. As well, the first rule is obviously flawed- what if you take more wounding hits than you have models? A rules glitch if I'm not mistaken- does anyone see something I missed that makes this work?

and this one is from a different player and this is the result of the dakka dakka forum

vulnerable to Blast (VtB) affects the entire unit. Each wound the UNIT suffers is doubled. Instant death affects each MODEL. So a unit of eight Scarabs failing four saves from a S6 weapon would be removed from the table. The four wounds are doubled, due to VtB, thus suffering eight wounds. Each wound removes a model, due to ID, thus all eight models are removed.

[Andrew]

I'm in camp 2 =). Here's the good official word from GW:

This came up not so long ago, and ended up having over 300 posts. It was still impossible to prove how to work it out 100% either way, due to some poor wording in the rulebook.

What you can be sure of though is:

- Vulnerable to Blasts (VtB) doubles the number of unsaved wounds on the unit, before they are allocated to individual models (this happens as part of the first line of p26). It is *the unit* that is VtB.

- Instant Death (ID) occurs when an individual model has been allocated a wound within the unit. It uses its own T value to check for ID, and if it occurs it is removed immediately, and therefore cannot "soak up" further wounds. This happens after VtB, as you only start allocating wounds after you have established how many woudns the unit has taken.

(Adding in rules like Mixed Armour (MA) and Torrent of Fire (ToF) complicate things further).

-So you place the template, roll for partials, and then count how many models are hit/hits are caused on the unit.
-You roll that many dice to wound, and your opponent makes any saves.
-You double the number of failed saves, and this is the number of wounds the unit takes.
-If there is mixed AP (etc) you allocate wounds that do not allow a save first.
-You allocate wounds one at a time, checking for ID as you go along.
-You cannot spread wounds out to avoid removing whole models.
-You canot lump wounds together onto a model after it has been removed due to ID.
-Casualties do not have to be removed from under the template, but only models within range/LOS (just range for Barrage) can be wounded - excess wounds are wasted.

Now this is where it gets contraversial - there are 2 camps within the debate:

Camp 1 - they see the number of models hit by the template to be the *maximun number* of models that can be affected by the shot, and that extra wounds are wasted (even though there are more models that could potentially be casualties).

Camp 2 - they see the number of models hit as simply being the *starting number* of hits on the unit, and allow more models to die than have actually been covered (within normal restrictions of range/LOS etc).

Both camps have put forward their evidence, and neither was able to convince the other (in full) that their way was the right way. In addition, the rules are so abstract that is impossible to apply logic to the debate.

So it is up to you and your opponent to either make up a house rule or roll a D6 to see which camp your are going to follow each time it happens/each game you play. At least until we get an FAQ...

Back on topic, and back to your question:
2 models hit, 2 wounds, doubled to 4. you allocated 1 wound to 1 base, removing it immediately due to ID. You allocate 1 wound to another base, again removing it due to ID.

- Camp 1 would say the other 2 wounds are wasted.
- Camp 2 would remove another 2 bases.

^ Thats your answer.
(hardly definitive, but its the best you've got at present! )

cheers

~ Tim

[bloodangellh]

What kind of answer was that? That's like telling us exactly what we already know. Thank's a lot GW!!!!!

[siriq]

i personally agree with camp 2 too, the rules are a little more clear on that side from what i can tell, but in the spirt of the game i say every game role for it.

[Andrew]

Yea basically. With the whole wounding thing, as Caleb and GW proved, I am correct with my original post. However, now we have a new dilemma: Whether the amount of models hit by the template is a limiting factor in those killable. I don't believe it is; I'm in camp two from above ^. However, remember this: The template must be centered on a base, so with a single cannon shot, a maximum of two bases will be removed, the one that was truly "hit" and the second which died from the letter of the rule. That is assuming Sean keeps the spacing. Which is okay because that's about the most I play with in my army (or Luong's).

[bloodangellh]

I still disagree. Wounds are doubled after they are applied, and after you fail your save, not before. If it said vunerable to blasts doubled the wounds inflicted then I would agree with you, but you have to apply them to a model first.