mmm, toaster frying

[bloodangellh]

I know this might sound rediculous but hear me out.

So you managed to get one hit on a scarab swarm. 1 wound applied to a swarm. He automaticlly fails his save. he is wounded, which is then doubled. Now if wounds do carry over, wouldn't it go to the next one, who would also be taking a strength 7 blast hit? So it would completly decimate the squad in the end? If you say that the new wound is not a blast wound, then how can you argue it's a strength 7 wound at the same time? If the strength transfers over and instakills another base then why wouldn't the blast part transfer as well? It just doesn't seem to be what the vunerable to blasts rule was intended to do.

If a vehicle vunerable to blasts was hit by a battle cannon, it would count as 2 hits. You would get to rolls 2 dice for each hit and take the highest for penetration (as both hits count as hits from an strength 8 ordanance weapon, just like from our example, all hits would be strength 7 blast hits). You can't just disassociate certain aspects of the hit, which is why I think wounds from vunerable to blasts should be localized.

People that argue for camp 2 in andrews post are saying you can kill an entire unit of swarms with one hit becuase no where in the rules does it say the blast aspect does not transfer and cause vunerable to blasts again and again. If that's the case than andrew you most certinally did find a way to take care of scarabs.

[Andrew]

Alrighty. Remember though, unless it's 4 plasma cannons or equivalent and Sean's scarabs are almost base to base, a single shot will only kill 2 with my interpretation. So it's not super-powerful.

Well, how would we care to do this per game for now? 1-3 only single base per, 4-6 2 bases per? At least until things are figured out.

[bloodangellh]

And like I said, if you look at it that way, wht rule prevents one wounding hit from killing the whole squad?

[Andrew]

None that I know of. It's a drawback of swarms. They don't get all the love =)

There is no rule saying it does happen either. Thus my above roll for it.

[bloodangellh]

You can't pick and choose rules, if the srength 7 transfers, to insta kill a second base, the AP 2 and the blast property would transfer as well, which would cause another vunerable to blast model to get hit by a blast, thus cause another doubling. The vunerable to blast rule is what says the whole squad would die.

[Andrew]

I don't think I picked and chose. Now I understand though what you're saying about the whole squad dying.

But now where is your position, that the whole squad is destroyed, or not? Because now that you say it that way, I don't like it. This is something:

Blast templates specifically affect a number of MODELS (para 3, p30). There is no "spillover" effect.

Thus only the models that are hit can be destroyed. I will agree with this now. My dreams of wiping out scarabs easily was cut tragically short. Awwww....

[bloodangellh]

That's something i completly forgot...you can kill somethng that isn't hit, and templets say they only hit the amount of models covered.

I love a good debate, get's the grey matter stirring, and the blood flowing.

[Andrew]

Although, with everything right, it still kinda works. Say the blast catches two bases, but only wounds one. Both would still die. However, if both were wounded, only those two would die, because only they were effected by the template. Slight huzzah!

[e1567]

Not sure that is how it works. With template weapons the wounds are distrubited throughout the unit that are in range of the initial weapon, not the actual blast template.

[Andrew]

Very understandable. However, only those that are affected by the template can be affected by wounding, number-wise. Thus if three are hit but one is wounded (by a PC), two will be killed. However, if three are hit and two are wounded (by a PC), only three will die total; the second "double wound" is lost because it's outside the area of effect for the template itself. Yes, the casualties can come from anywhere in the unit.

[siriq]

then what about the inferno cannon on a hellhound?

[Andrew]

It'd be the same.

[heatseeker]

i know the answer!!! with the plasma cannon, since it's a template weapon, those under the template that are hit and wounded/instant killed should only be taken away. This cannot be applied to the whole unit as they are not taking the hits bc they are not in range of the blast. This is opposed to an exorcist missile launcher that is not a template, but can instant kill units of swarms as many wounds as the swarms take. So if i wound with 3 wounds on a unit of 4 scarab swarms, 3 bases are instant killed, any from the unit since it's not a template. The whole overkill rule doesnt apply to blast weapons which is basically the whole confusion here. In the end, EACH WOUND that is double toughness will take away that many bases bc of instant kill only under the template though. so if it's double the amount of wounds bc of vunerable to blast each wound under the template will kill that many scarab swarms that were wounded. the end.

[bloodangellh]

casualties can be taken out from anyone withing range of the weaon not the blast. Blast is only to determine number of hits scored and in turn number of models able to be killed.

[siriq]

this is a bunch of craziness but i agree the only about of bases to die should be the total number hit.

[heatseeker]

then blast weapons are stupid if u can take casualties from anyone in the unit, makes no sense to me besides the whole determining how many could possibly be wounded. i say we should make a house rule that only the amount of bases hit under the blast template can be the maximum amount of wounds you can do, to make it simple and fair. if this were real life, do u think that if a unit of soldiers not in the radius of a blast would be hit and killed while those in the radius of the blast may or may not die? i dont think so bc it doesnt make sense.

[bloodangellh]

It's to prevent you from trying to snipe characters, upgrade characters, and special weapon troops with your template placement.

[RedSparrow]

So the long and short of it would be that every wound would remove a whole base, but despite having instant-death wounds to spare, you can only kill as many models as were successfully hit originally. Do I have that right?

[siriq]

also matt if you detonate say a gernade in a bunch o people the people will be wounded from a couple things, first the initial explosion, then comes the shratnel, and lastly the blast impact on internal organs. while a standard normal fragmentation gernade used by our military has a killing radius of 15 feet the impact radius is around 20-30 feet, and i really think the blast template really just accounts for the first two and the third thing. so looking at a realistic point of view you could take wounds out of a squad that is not under the blast template. but then again this is games workshop and the year 40k soooo all that really doesnt matter.

[Andrew]

Adam, you are mostly correct. Say there are 4 touched by the template, but due to partial rolls, only three are hit. Now, with the rest of the discussion in place all 4 would die. There are still two "VtB wounds" to deal with. However, they disappear because there are no more under the template. Make any sense?

And going with the other thing that Caleb was saying, it apparently truly doesn't matter. As suggested in another forum, sure the template lands there, and sure you can remove casualties from anywhere, but if the unit somehow stretches for 60" straight back or something (tyranids come to mind), then it's very unreasonable that "they were killed while advancing and some others took their place" if they were removed from the back. Remember, all casualties have to be removed within range of the weapon fired. With my example it's fine if the taken casualties are in range, but with short range weapons especially they must be removed from within range, no exceptions. The gun simply doesn't have effect any farther. That means don't put your heavy weapons up front! =) This is a whole other discussion though, so start a new thread if you want to continue it.