40K v5

[dragonbait]

This sounds awesome!

[Andrew]

K, so changes that I've been witness to (Tom too):

- Ballistic Skill usefulness (think: for 6+)
- Gets Hot! weapons (think: only 1's)
- Blast Weapons (think: ordnance weapn
- Running (think: fleet but not)
- Cover
- LOS, Target Priority (think: reduced, lack thereof)
- Wound allocation (think: game bogging dice rolls)
- ID characters joining/leaving units (think: proximity only)
- Shooting at ID characters (think: much easier)
- Rending (think: "to hit" rolls not used
- Artillery
- Close combat results (think: fantasy res)
- Force Weapons (think: suck)
- Power fists/thunderhammers (think: suck)
- Vehicle shooting (think: much less)
- AP rolling (think: no more glancing destruction! huzzah!)
- Exploding Vehicle damage (think: not so dangerous)
- Vehicles gain exact same cover saves as infantry, and better clarifications
- Frag grenades are S5 vs Vehicles
- Dedicated Transports (think: battlefield taxi's)
- AP effects on passengers (think: much, much better)
- Ramming (think: with vehicles, holy crap this will be freakin' awesome)
- Fast Vehicles (think: slower, less defensible)
- USR's (Preferred Enemy, Stubborn, Scouts, Tank Hunters, Relentless, Turbo-Boosters {no more 2+ inv}

Missions
- shit on a monkey penis, they entirely fubared this. I am going to flat out say now that, if this is how it's going to be, I'm playing the old missions. I mean, seriously. The winner of the dice roll for deployment deploys his entire army, then the opponent does his entire army? VP's don't mean anything unless you tie for objectives?

And they only give you 3 missions. 3. Sure, there's variation in deployment, but THAT'S IT. And one is simply retarded. "Deploy 2 troops and an HQ anywhere on the table. Then your opponent does the same, but at least 12" from your force." Fuckin' serious? Sure, I'll plonk down my 20 tactical marines and captain. Oh, what's that? You deployed 9 rending/winged tyranid warriors and 64 hormagaunts that strike at I5 on S4?? First turn charge? Oh that's cool. You win. Good game.

[Andrew]

Just for shits & giggles, let's see how that would pan out, eh? Work out some mathhammer here.

9 Warriors - adrenal glands x2, leaping, rending claws, scything talons, toxin sacs (360)
32 Hormagaunts - adrenal glands x2, toxin sacs (448)
32 Hormagaunts - adrenal glands x2, toxin sacs (448)
(1256)

Space Marine Master - master-crafted power sword, plasma pistol, artificer armor, iron halo, terminator honors, bionics (190)
10 Tactical Marines - flamer, heavy bolter, veteran sergeant w/power sword, bolt pistol, bionics, combat shield (201)
10 Tactical Marines - flamer, heavy bolter, veteran sergeant w/power sword, bolt pistol, bionics, combat shield (201)
2 Rhinoes - 2 storm bolters, hunter killer, extra armor (160)
(752)

So, Tyranids get first turn. Everything charges everything but the rhinoes. Let's say the Warriors are fighting the character. So the master goes at the same time as the whole Tyranid force. We'll roll his dice first.
5 Attacks (3 base, 1 for two ccws, 1 for terminator honors)
50% to hit = 3-4 hits, including master-crafting
50% to wound = 2 wounds = 1 dead warrior that still gets its attacks

Next the warriors vs the master.
4 x 9 = 36 (2 base, 1 for scything talons, 1 for charging)
50% to hit = 18 hits
66% to wound = 12 wounds, 2 rending
66% to save = 3 wounds suffered = he dies
50% to save rending = 1 rending suffered = he dies

Now the Hormagaunts.
4 x 32 = 128 (2 base, 1 for scything talons, 1 for charging)
66% to hit = 84 hits
50% to wound = 42 wounds
66% to save = 14 wounds suffered = wiped tactical squad, before they even strike
Rinse and repeat for the second squad.

Now we're left with 8 warriors and 64 hormagaunts still, patiently waiting for my reinforcements to enter. Great.

Let's say I filled up that deficit in points with a command squad (that suffered the excess wounds from the tacs) and second character. Okay, I finally get attacks with them.
4 Surviving Command Squad vs gaunts
2 x 2 = 4 attacks (1 base, 1 for terminator honors
50% to hit = 2 hits
66% to wound = 1 wound
16% to save = 1 wound suffered

Chaplain
5 attacks (3 base, 1 for two ccws, 1 for terminator honors
50% to hit = 3-4 hits including master crafting
66% to wound = 2 kills

K, so now I'm outnumbered by 15:1. I suffer 15 armor saves. I allocated 5 to each guy. Both marines die messily, while the chaplain fails one due to his artificer armor. Hey cool. He's only outnumbered 77 models to 3 models on the table by the bottom of Turn 1. On my turn 1 my rhinoes might be able to shoot down some hormagaunts, then the chaplain predictably dies.


If I was in cover it wouldn't matter. Tyranids would just take flesh hooks and models would strike at normal I anyway.

[dragonbait]

GG.

[bensliver]

The set up thing makes lots os sense to me, if you're going first you can get some massive shooting done because of GW's large ranges. This way if you go first then I get to react to your setup. Seems fair.

As for the rest, I'm really new to this so my oppinion might suck but if you knew that could happen, why not just stick it with the rest of your stuff? Or in a forest or something? Plus if they go first you get to set up second. You could be on the other side of the table if you wanted, right?

But, hey, I don't know nuffink. I just picked up some boxes on Friday.

[Andrew]

Well, the whole deployment thing goes, but then you still roll a dice for 1st turn. So you may easily end up setting up first and going second. That is such a MASSIVE disadvantage it's sickening. He gets to deploy seeing all your stuff down, and shoot you first. Lame.

[bensliver]

I thought if you won 1st turn you set down first? That's very balenced, wheras if it's seperate it's not. Which one ist es?

[Andrew]

It would be balanced. But it's not. It's seperate.

[Leudast1215]

Wow good summary of the supposed new rules, I've browsed a little through the very, VERY Beta looking version of 5th edition (i'm not giving out the source) and can tentatively confirm these rumors as good rumors. The new mission system actually seems rather interesting to me with the exception of Dawn of War and I was tired of straight up battle line death matches anyway. Although I do feel compelled to correct an issue with your math hammer: Hormagaunts get 1 attack base, + 1 for sything talons and + 1 for charging. that = 3 attacks on the charge. I would never bitch about Hormagaunts if those little buggers had 4 attacks on the charge, but they do not, sorry . Btw if we don't like the mission systems then we simply make our own house rules, the main rule book should be used as a guide line and house rules, ironically, are less up for debate than the written ones.

[Andrew]

us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/extras/countdown.htm
- countdown timer

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyN9EaqKB4Y
- video



July 12 it is!

[Leudast1215]

Yippe... Horray... Woohoo........... So which amongst us wants to shell out the $40 for a rule book that we may not wind up using in its' entirety anyway? volunteers?

[siriq]

i am not looking forward to this, they totally nerfed falcons, to the point where they are glorified, crappy troop transports. I guess i have to guy some fireprisms

[Andrew]

Collector and Gamer editions announced, with some toys.

belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2008/05/news-5th-edition-collectors-and-gamers.html

[Leudast1215]

Having read through the rule book and played a couple small/short games last thursday with Talon and his friend (forgot his name...) I came to the conclusion that despite a few hiccups, 5th Edition 40K is actually an improvement over 4th Edition.

Here's why: Troops being scored might sound kind of gay at first (it really should be INFANTRY), but it adds a very real strategic element to a game based more often than not on objective grabbing now. Fortunately, all other units that cannot score can at least contest, so they're not actually worthless at all (I'm looking at Eldar skimmers that fly like 30"). Running is a very useful, situational mechanic and I feel, oddly enough as a Tau player, that it helps a lot when you need it like running 12" up into a building to re-claim a lost objective at the last minute. Speaking of buildings, they all basically became pseudo bunkers where they CANNOT BE SHOT AT, only the building itself can be shot and destroyed and the occupants inside are treated as having been inside a blown up transport. This could be very evil because placing units in front of a door to said building would mean all the "passengers" die... muwahaha. To balance it out, buildings only have a pre-set # of fire points. Units on top of buildings can shoot normally, but they'll add +1 to any damage role used to blow it up. Ruins are basically the good old area terrain forests we're so used to. The ubiquitious (spelling?) 4+ cover save works well with maximum LOS and balances it out. The new missions are 10x better than 4th edition, except for that retarded kill point system for some of them which i refuse to use since you get points based off the # of units you kill. that means if you have 10 units and your enemy has 5, well you're likely to lose. even tau vehicle gun drones and spore mines count for this kill point system until they can be faq'd. tanks are a lot tougher than they were before, just a little slower. heck tau tanks got better.

However, some retarded ideas like being able to shoot a unit with 1 guy in LOS and kill the entire unit with enough wounds caused is just lame. same with being able to combine very powerful shots onto a single miniature within a unit so long as it's different than the others. FNP got slightly nerfed, which it didn't need. some people will love or hate the IC character rules cause u can shoot em now unless they're in a unit. however, if they're within 2", they automatically join. no debate.

frankly this edition was more fun cause i enjoyed the missions far more in those two small games than i ever did with 4th edition's lame death match system that never ever changed. the game has gone from being about target priority until your enemy is dead to a game more about maneover and positioning units to claim objectives; killing the enemy is secondary.you can still do it and win automatically, but with 5 turns, rampant 4+ cover saves and random game length, don't count on it.

dedicated transports can transport anyone.

oh, another HUGE positive is the new out-flanking rule. it adds a whole new dimension to the game, it's a lot of fun and very cool. Ravenwing and Genestealers/lictors are going to have some interesting strategies with this new rule (i should know... i tried it ^_^).

[Andrew]

Good to see you come around. I agree on the "1guylos" issue as being dumb. The new set of missions can get bland after half a dozen games, so making up our own, or playing 4th edition missions using 5th edition rules is already common and better than ever.

[Leudast1215]

same can be said of 4th; but considering we spend 99.9% of our times playing friendly games (the best type) i'm all for creating scenarios, new rules, etc... this edition, more so than 4th i feel, creates a better standard template to work off of. except of course for that rule with the 1 miniature in LOS.

[ddaypunk06]

Yea I mentioned that the other night remember tom? The whole making rules thing when we were reading about buildings and taking models off the table when they are inside them?

Who says we can't build on the rules...? I wouldn't say changing anything...but fine tuning somethings couldn't hurt.

I should be up for a game on TH. Either Eldar, or proxy grey knights...which some of them I have actual models for now (Thanks Rios for the Bday present)!

Some things are great changes, others not so much btw. But hey...we keep buying the books...and thats what they are marketing this game on. "Lets change a few things to make em happy all the while pissing them off...so that we can change things again in another edition!" Thats what I think they are saying.

BTW Tom... IC character...a bit redundant...just like APM Mine in BF2142... if you get my drift.