40K v5

[Andrew]

Here are the collected rumors I've found floating around. Take it with some salt and sugar. My comments are in italics.

[glow=green,2,300]Shooting[/glow]
-There's now a reason to have a BS higher than 5 (can we say 2+/5+?). (I think this means if you miss the first time, you can reroll for a 5+ attempt)
-All models friend or foe now block line of sight. Vehicles and Monstrous Creature can be targeted over intervening infantry. (I'd like to think it's units, not models. Either way, good to have that back)
-Area terrain does not block line of sight. (Potentially going back to actual line of sight, instead of the system we have now)
-All blast weapons now scatter. (I think this means if they miss)

[glow=green,2,300]Vehicles[/glow]
-Defensive weapons on vehicles are now Str 4 and below. (gay)
-Skimmers Moving Fast is now a 5+ cover save. (I have heard this is the new rule for All Obscured Targets)
-Dedicated transports can now carry any unit (subject to normal restrictions, i.e., no Terminators) and are no longer the deathtraps they have been (no entangling, just regular pinning).
-AP 1 weapons add +1 to the vehicle damage chart instead of doing as they do now. (looks like the "single chart" will be used. Another hint I received personally: it will go from 1-8, rather than the 1-6 now. Maybe those upper slots get the "destroyed result?)
-Ordinance weapons roll 2d6 and pick the highest on the vehicle damage table. (In addition to 2D6 take highest on the AP roll? Neat, and makes sense that a massive shell doesn't just blow off a little gun attachment)

[glow=green,2,300]Miscellaneous[/glow]
-Independent Character targeting restrictions have been eased.
-There is no IC protection any longer unless he is joined to a unit
-ICs within 2" of a unit automatically join it.
-Dark Eldar are not gone, as they're mentioned in the rules (their jetbikes DO get the 6" assault).
-Frag grenades operate as plasma grenades now. (no more uniqueness for Eldar)
-Monstrous creatures get move through cover, not a reroll.
-Saving Throws are now made AFTER wound allocation. This means you could still roll all your generic troopers as a group, but will need to roll for each special model (serg, heavy weapons, etc) one by one. Torrent of Fire is gone. (I do not like this and don't believe it. It'd bog down the game, which is counter to what they want and have been trying to achieve)

[glow=green,2,300]Missions[/glow]
-The missions are different enough that Troops only counting as scoring isn't as big a deal as it would be today.
-Victory points are calculated differently in "cleanse" style missions (points calculated depending on the FOC slot the dead unit took up). (gay. My 20man CSM unit is worth the same as that 5man scout unit, points-wise. Don't like it)
-Scouts and Infiltrators can now try to outflank the enemy and come on as reserves from a different board edge.
-Deepstrike is the same, but if you can't place all the models, you roll on the "deepstrike mishap" table (50% you're dead, 50% you place yourself anywhere you like). (I like the return of this)

[glow=green,2,300]Older stuff:[/glow]
There will be a new rulebook and new starter set which will be Orks vs marines, it will include both troops and vehicles (a marine dreadnought is likely and possibly others). The 3up grot seen at UKGD ’07 is also for the starter box.

Rumoured rules amendments
1. the addition of a ‘run’ option.
2. Improvements to the cover save rules.
3. Rending toned down (auto wound if you roll a 6 to wound against any toughness & reduction in effectiveness against vehicles).
4. Template (Blast) weapons rules streamlined.
5. Sniper weapons rules amended (rending probable)
6. Close combat rules amended with a combat resolution phase similar to fantasy
7. Single vehicle damage table.
8. Vehicles without a WS in CC always get hit in the rear armour.
9. Vehicles able to ram
10. Other vehicle amendments
11. Mission rules changed in a similar manner to Apocalypse (no more Alpha, Gamma or Omega).
12. Only non vehicle non swarm troop choices are scoring units
13. Vehicles types are adjusted (the rumoured skimmer nerf)

[Leudast1215]

interesting; I've been reading the 2nd edition of 40K recently and some of these changes remind me of those earlier rules with regards to cover saves, vehicles, etc... the downside is rending because unless the rumored run rule and the current fleet rule can combine units that rely on rending like Harlequins and Genestealers seem to have been unfairly nerfed. I wish they had a more detailed vehicle destruction table because it would appear, based on these rumors, that non-skimmer vehicles are still relatively easy to knock out. However, I do like the line of sight change with regards to being unable to shoot through your own units a plus because that always seemed wrong to me. The deepstrike/infiltration rules sound good. I really hope that they add some frickin' 2+ and 6+ to hit for close combat to add some relevance to the WS attribute.

[Andrew]

A lot is harkening to 2nd. The recent codecies (Eldar, DA, Chaos) have all been retroed, and now the entire game is too. I kinda like it, since the rumor mill does have some more detail, but not too much.

I doubt they'll ever go so far with a 2+ or 6+ to hit in combat, excepting current vehicle rules, simply because then they'd have to go and redo Fantasy, since the tables are the same. And that came out what, two years ago now? It's not time yet.

[Leudast1215]

If i can scan a copy of the close combat "To Hit" chart into WORD and add in a few 2+ and 6+ then GamesWorkShop can do it too because a Fire Warrior, how I love em', does not deserve to hit a Genestealer on a 3+. Maybe a house rule???

[Andrew]

...a fire warrior never can hit a genestealer on a 3+ in close combat. In fact it's a 5+. Shooting definitely though.

[Leudast1215]

oops hehe typo

[ddaypunk06]

I'm so confused...

The rules may say all grenades are that, but the codecies are up to date as well...so eldar may still have it.

[Andrew]

[glow=green,2,300]Shooting[/glow]
-Blast weapons don't roll to hit, they just scatter. They now operate like template weapons in that any model touched by the blast is hit. No more "roll 4+ for partial" stuff. A unit firing multiple blast weapons (a SM Dev squad being the example) fires like a multiple barrage unit would in 4th edition. Scatter once, then lay the blasts off of the original template. These two things might make up for the lack of a to-hit roll. You don't need to center the hole over someone when you place it before determining scatter.

-You can shoot over other squads if you can see over them because of elevation, etc. You can always shoot at vehicles or monstrous creatures over other squads.

-Line of Sight: It's units that block LoS, so you shouldn't worry about spending 45 minutes drawing LOS from each individual trooper to each individual target. You draw LOS from the eyes of the model. Area terrain gives cover saves. There's an entire chapter on ruined buildings and how they affect line of sight (like a mini Cities of Death). I honestly don't remember if 6" of terrain blocks sight or not.

-After shooting and wounding, you can choose to become pinned. You get a +1 to cover save (or a 6+ if you're in the open). It's the "get down!" rule.

- Flamers: You now determine wounds for all template weapons firing from a squad before you take saves or remove casualties.

-Gets Hot! is back to the 3rd ed version. So that Ork character doesn't have to worry about rolling 3s on his plasma gun.

[glow=green,2,300]Assault[/glow]
-Assaulting in cover: If you assault someone in cover, and you don't have grenades, you now become initiative 1 (instead of them becoming init 10). This works a lot better when more than two units are in combat.

-If you are charged while broken, you make another fall back move immediately. If you don't get away (i.e., they can still reach you), you're destroyed. If you do get away, you get away.

-Preferred Enemy now allows you to reroll all misses, instead of hitting on a 3+.

[glow=green,2,300]Vehicles[/glow]
-No shooting of defensive weapons if you move full speed.

-Smoke launchers are a 5+ cover save.

-Vehicles can now get up to a 3+ cover save, depending on what they're hiding behind.

-No re-roll of wounding against transported infantry no matter how far you moved.

-Fire all weapons if you stay still (except Ordnance, it's got special rules). Fast vehicles can fire everything if they move up to 6". If you move, you can fire 1 plus defensive weapons. Fast vehicles can move up to 12" and fire 1 plus defensive. If you move more than 6", you only fire defensive (I think you can still fire defensive weapons here, but I'm not 100% on that).

-Fast vehicles can move up to 18" (their max speed now) and only fire defensive.

-Vehicles can only fire at one target. I did not see any special rules for sponsons firing at multiple targets.

-Vehicle damage chart: It's about halfway between the glancing and penetrating charts of today (1-2 is the can't shoot/move thing, 3 is weapon, 4 is immobilized, 5-6 destroyed/annihilated). Glance is a -2. If you are glanced, your vehicle can at most be immobilized.

-Transports: If your transport is destroyed, passengers now take a S:4 hit, saves allowed (instead of a 4+). If an open-topped transport is destroyed, it's a S:3 hit because its easier to disembark.

[glow=green,2,300]Miscellaneous[/glow]
-Still saw nothing on 6" plus of area terrain blocking line of sight. You CAN declare certain types of terrain as LoS blocking -- it just has to be done before the game. You also decide what is difficult, what is dangerous, and what is impassable. Certain things can be difficult for one type of model and not difficult for another. So tank traps might be dangerous terrain for vehicles, but count as clear terrain for infantry. A river might be impassable for infantry, but dangerous for vehicles. You just have to decide before you play. I like this, as it gives more power to the players.

-Force weapons now just inflict instant death instead of that weird pseudo-instant death.

-You can still only take one save per guy.

-Yes, allocate wounds before making saves. This will probably encourage larger squads (goodbye, 6 man las-plas).

-Bikes all now get a 3+ cover save for their turbo-boost. So the psy-cannon thing is out the window.

-A unit with Scouts that is inside a vehicle confers that ability to the vehicle. Let the Pathfinders and Possessed Marines rule!

-Fearless REALLY sucks now. There's no limit to the number of wounds you can take from being outnumbered. 20 to 1? That's 20 armor saves.

[Leudast1215]

With these new rumors/facts I'm actually beginning to like 5th edition in spite of the nerf to rending; especially with the blast template and cover rules. the option of becoming pinned is rather nifty. the preferred enemy special rule just got a whole lot better and for 1 point a model my Genestealers will not enter the battlefield without it given the changes to rending. the Fearless rule got nerfed, maybe because GW is trying to emphasize the specialness of the "and they shall know no fear" rule for marines? at least Monstrous Craeatures won't have to worry about it, but I feel bad for a lot of the smaller elite units and special characters now. Hooray for Synapse.

[modius13]

And here I had just sorta finally gotten down 4th edition again. *sigh* time to start looking into War Machine more seriously.

[heatseeker]

these new rules seem a little weird and possibly may make things a little more complicated.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I dont necessarily think more complicated is completely bad for 40K...as we all know 40K is toddler GW game and has been tailored for children more so than the other games. So a little bit of complication could start weeding out certain elements that may not be positive to the hobby. Though I highly doubt that cause what is GW without its annoying fan boys.

[heatseeker]

Ya but we have all had our bouts with clarification of rules. I just do not want to be discouraged from playing the game bc it's so overly complicated now.

We can all easily avoid the fanboys at will. Just dont go to a GW store.

After reading these rules, the damage chart for vehicles is going to be 1-8? How is that going to work? Are we literally going to need a d8?

[Andrew]

No. I thought it might be 1-8, but it seems to be 1-6. The 1-8 would happen on a D6. Penetrating hits would simply add 2 to the roll to get that 7 and 8.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I doubt that it will get so complicated that it will discourage play...it will not get as complicated as fantasy and really fantasy is not that complicated. We are not discouraged from playing fantasy so I think we will be ok in that department.

While I dont like some of the rules, some are good, I personally think a harder vehicle damage chart is needed because vehicles are way to easy to destroy in the game. So some changes are good.

Also, Matt one can never escape the GW fanboys. They hunt us normal gamers cause they cant stand our normalness and abilities like showering, teeth brushing, sexual intercourse having, and a social life that exists outside of gaming. Also if you are offended by this side conversation that matt and I are having send me a PM and I will remove it. Its all in good fun.

[Andrew]

I am offended by not being offended. So in all actuality I'm just sitting here.

It's not getting that much more complicated; just enough to make it more realistic. I can't WAIT until my vehicles stop being destroyed on lucky 6's for glancing. It happens way too often.

[Leudast1215]

I agree but your defiler looks so much more chaosy decapitated ;D

[dragonbait]

After that last 40k tournament, I love rolling consecutive 6's to glance and blow up vehicles. =D

[Andrew]

EXACTLY. No more of that nonsense.

[Andrew]

New info. Yummy, me likes!

"Line of Sight
The old PDF (which most folk are going off of) stated that all units (friend and foe) blocked line of sight. The final ruling is that you CAN shoot through intervening units (friend or foe), as long as they don't completely block line of sight (like tanks and so on). But if you do so, then you give the target a 4+ cover save.
-This cover save apparently works both ways.

Blast Weapons
There is a significant way in which all blast weapons work (large and small) now. First of all blast weapons do not require a roll to hit, using the firers ballistic skill. Instead you place the blast template over the intended target and roll a scatter dice. If the dice shows a hit all models under the template (including partials) are hit. If it scatters then roll 2D6 to see how far the template scatters. But here is the cool part - you now modify the deviation by the firers ballistic skill (in inches). So to simplify, the Blast template either hits or scatters 2D6 Minus (BS)"
-My question is are we talking the sum of 2d6" minus BS, or 2d6" (take the highest) minus BS."