Jan. 10 750 Skirmish Tourney

[dragonbait]

Go to Michael's store over in sycamore. Get mapboard. It works just as good as plasticard.
I'd estimate a good 50% or more of general wargear is "aesthetic" and serves no purpose. Grenades in and of themselves are aesthetic. Nothing is measured from them, no line of site required, etc. It's just nice to know what they actually have. Just because one person agrees with you that they're not necessary, others disagree.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

Plasticard can be gotten from any craft store worth a shit. Also if you asked John at OBG! he would probably order it. Also there is that strange and new technology called the internet that allows one to purchase goods from thousands of miles away and like magic thru another new technology called Mail it is at your doorstep within days.


Rockford
Address: HobbyTown USA
3782 N Alpine Rd
Rockford, IL 61114
Phone: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Dekalb&1s=IL&1z=60115&1y=US&1l=41.9291&1g=-88.755&1v=ZIP&2c=Rockford&2s=IL&2a=3782+N+Alpine+Rd&2z=61114



St. Charles
Address: Main Street Commons
3627 East Main St.
St. Charles, IL 60174
Phone: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
Homepage: View St. Charles

www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Dekalb+&1s=IL&1z=60115&2c=St.+Charles&2s=IL&2a=3627+East+Main+St.&2z=60174

Both these places are relatively close and not bad drives and both sell plasticard...WIERD!!!!

And while I dont necessarily like the WYISWYG rule it is necessary for competitive play so people dont cheat and switch shit up or magically remember that they have an item that will save their ass or some other such shenanigans. Any tournament worth a shit will enforce the rule as it is a good rule.

[Andrew]

Then they must be played as landed each and every time, so you can't try to pull the "it's up higher" crap; it's not skimmering, deal wid it! And hey, if you keep your gun drones alive, they're worth nothing.

I always thought John enforced WYSIWYG, which should be enforced at every single tournament. It's a courtesy issue, among other things. Sorry, but proxying is downright rude in tournaments. You want to use something? make it or buy like the rest of us. You can magnetize your weapons too. Stick a magnet either into the hull or inside the hull wherever you please, then slap on the smart missiles when you use them. It's cheap and easy to do.

Scratch-building is indeed very appropriate and encouraged, so long as it includes all weapons and equipment shown in the codex including upgrade weapons, and each must be clearly defined. Anything other than stock equipment. These things that affect a player's decisions are what needs to be readily visible during the game. It is still WYSIWYG, but with a design of your making. This is the "counts-as" principle.

[Leudast1215]

So... I can plop a Missile Pod down into the hole (I think it's long enough to just rest in the gap) and leave it at that? A Smart Missile Model is just a Missile Pod smacked together and I'd even tell my opponents that even though they're obviously not Gun Drones.

Also Andrew Landing Gear on Tau Skimmers are literally redundant they serve no gaming purposes due to 5th changing how Skimmers operate since they block LOS and Tau Skimmers cannot move more than 12" therefore immobilized = no death... so they serve no purpose other than to serve as landing gear for your little ship to sit on. The rules for them also say that you have to not move for it to count as landed for the subsequent turn; meaning they cannot count as landed because I'm always going to be moving at least 6" a turn .

Thanks for the advice on Michaels though, I'll check it out primarily for my Ogres so I can get converting those. Also, I have 1 Crisis Suit so the height of my Skimmers will be irrelevant... Damn 4th did Skimmers so much better.

I also would appreciate not being told to buy over the internet given how common identity theft is and the fact that I do not have a Credit Card.

[Andrew]

Well the rules would disagree. All skimmers must be on flying bases during the game unless they're immobilized, wrecked, or landed as in your case. Redundant or not, they are there. Get flying bases of some kind or suffer being landed; John says so :

"yes, he needs flying bases, otherwise they have to move as if they're always landed ir landing"

A dowel rod and some wooden bases will do just fine if you want sturdy things. Or if you can acquire some, get GW flying bases and make the hole in the hull bigger so it goes farther down the pole than just the little peg on top. No snappage, easy disassemble and packing. It's how my Falcon rolls...I mean skims.

Yes, that'd be acceptable for missile pods, though you may want at least sticky tack to hold it in place. Show they are smart missiles, gun drones, or nothing at all and that's what they are. I think it'd be neat to mount them as one big missile rack somewhere on the hull, but that's just me.

Don't be a baby; buy online. It makes things so much easier. It's like saying "Don't go to the city, there's crime there!" Besides, you went nuts overseas...what harm could you do buying from a reputable store? And sign up for a good card, like when you get a free sandwich. That's what I did as a freshman. Still have 0% interest on it too. Sandwich was mighty good too.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

Identity theft isn't rampant enough that you need fear the internet stores like they are some boogey man lurking in the closet waiting to take your ass cherry. Getting a credit card is super easy and they have student ones that are low rates and amounts so you dont go overvoard not only that but almost every internet store takes bank cards. Geeze.

I give you a viable alternative to buying missile pods and suffering from the WYSIWYG and you dont like that...

I give you an answer for not having access to plasticard providing not only locations but also directions and you dont like that...

What does a person have to do to get you to agree to something...

If you dont take my advice whatever no hair off my balls but when you get told you cant use something in a tournament dont bitch about it cause you were given alternatives and you didnt want them. Just trying to help you get around the WYSIWYG rule.

[siriq]

lol ive never had a problem with wysiwyg, and usually isnt inforced harshly, but for the sake of the game i would say try to get it as close as possible.

[Leudast1215]

Yay so my low tech solution is acceptable yippee ^_^.

Btw that's cool if my skimmers count as landed because, again, the "landed" thingy doesn't actually affect the actual rules of the skimmer in any way shape or form for shooting, the disembarking of troops or assault. It just means my skimmers won't be up as high as they would be on flying bases and I can live with that for TLOS purposes. I'm surprised John didn't know this given he has a Tau army himself and that the "landed" rule for Tau skimmers is incorporated into the new skimmer rules in 5th edition by default so it's as if they didn't exist at all (thus why I said they were redundant). As for skimmers being required to be on flying bases... the writers probably didn't consider the reality of their flimsy flying bases at the time , but I'll look into a long term solution. I just don't think I could have it ready by Saturday on this short notice.

If I had the bits on me at the moment I'd actually consider constructing a little missile rack that's a nifty idea, but will probably have to wait until later... as now I have to consider where I place it because distance is still drawn from the "barrel" so If I place it at the back of the tank where it looks cool it = I lose what, 8" of shooting range?

Fewth, good to know those potential issues have been resolved before hand thanks a lot. Oddly it seems I'll be doing what I was going to do originally; just gotta plop some missile pods down on the wings as a short term solution to a long term problem.

The credit card is still a personal matter not so much an issue for miniature gaming; I'm actually getting one soon, but I'll never use it over the internet .

[Andrew]

John has a bag of flying bases for sale; pick that up, widen the holes in the tanks with a knife and you're good to go.

Being landed does affect your rules; you can't move, obviously, and you are autohit in assaults. Kind've a downer.

[Leudast1215]

I'd appreciate a reference to this rule in the 5th edition rule book because as of right now the only place I'm aware that this occurs is in the Tau Empire codex due to Landing Gear.

And for what it's worth... it wasn't an issue last tournament.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

Here are some rules from Adepticon, which isn't GW, but they host one of the largest GW events in the country. The rules they make are pretty much respected by most tournament attendees. Also most of the non-dekalb people attending John's OBG! tournaments will expect tournament quality rules such as adepticons.

Hope these rules clarify a little bit, I dont have the specific rules andrew is talking about so he will have to provide those.


RB.03B.03 – Q: Do skimmers have to be glued to their
base even though the rules for skimmers (pg 71)
state that the model should be removed from its base
when it is immobilized or destroyed?
A: Skimmers models must be mounted on their flying base,
but players are not required to actually glue the model onto
the base. Therefore it may be removed as dictated by the
skimmer rules [clarification].
Ref: TAU.30I.01

TAU.30I.01 – Q: When a vehicle with Landing Gear
‘lands’ can (or must) a player remove the model’s
flight base?
A: If the vehicle’s flight base isn’t glued in place a player
must remove the model’s base when it lands. If the flight
base is glued in place then the Skimmer may not use its
Landing Gear [rules change].
Ref: RB.03B.03

RB.71B.01 – Q: If a skimmer rams/tank shocks an
enemy unit that is in terrain does it have to take a
dangerous terrain test to do so?
A: Only if the skimmer begins or ends its movement in the
terrain [RAW].

RB.71B.02 – Q: Can a skimmer performing a tank
shock selectively choose to fly over enemy units (and
vehicles) that it doesn’t want to tank shock or ram?
How about flying over friendly units or intervening
terrain in order to tank shock an enemy unit?
A: Yes, a skimmer may selectively choose to move over any
friendly/enemy units and moves over intervening terrain
without penalty (although it still has to take a dangerous
terrain test if it ends the move in terrain as normal)
[clarification].

[Andrew]

Just because it wasn't enforced before doesn't mean it still isn't; perhaps John got constructive criticism from previous tournaments about how to improve them. Enforcing WYSIWYG might be one of them. Regardless, he said you must have bases, which are available on the paint rack at OBG.

Which rules do you need to know? Your landing gear rules should say that you can't move either during your turn or the previous turn or something, I can't quite remember.

BRB pg 3, under "Bases" : "Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game." This also includes skimmers, as they are supplied with bases. You don't have to glue them, as we all know how easily they snap. Go with my suggestion and they never will.

BRB pg 63, under "Assault Vehicles" : "Attacking a vehicle that is immobilized or was stationary in its previous turn; Automatic hit" A landed skimmer doesn't move. Next player turn, your opponent assaults and automatically hits it.

[Leudast1215]

I agree and I'm aware with everything you have both said and I appreciate you pointing out exactly where they are found.

However, neither of you have actually read what a landed skimmer means. A skimmer cannot start the game immobilized if it has a flying base or not.

Tau Landing Gear operate as follows on page 30 of the Tau Empire codex:

"Though they utilise advanced anti-gravitic technology, Tau vehicles are fitted with basic landing gear in case they should suffer malfunction. In any turn that the vehicle does not move, it may choose to no longer count as a Skimmer until it moves again. This benefit does not apply on the first turn of the game."

They key word is "choose" and "may" and it doesn't even work on the first turn. This is entirely at the player's discretion, not due to a core rule in 5th edition. It was also only relevant in 4th edition when Skimmers didn't block TLOS, thus giving the rule a purpose. Now that Skimmers block LOS, this Landing Gear rule is completely redundant like about half of all Tau wargear.

Therefore the only reason I would ever have to use a flying base in a tournament is due to the pre-conditions of the tournament and for etiquette. The flying base itself has nothing to do with with this "landed" idea that none of the rules you posted ever address; the lack of a flying base just literally shows the skimmer is immobilized and reduces its' TLOS accordingly.

There is no rule, anywhere in the 5th edition rule book or in the Tau Empire codex, that says a skimmer cannot move if it doesn't have a flying base and therefore must behave as if it were immobilized. Tournament entry requirements simply obligate a Skimmer to be mounted on a flying base out of tradition (4th edition when it meant something) and because TLOS matters more now. There is nothing to say that a Skimmer has to be mounted in the beginning of the game for it to move in the core rules.

There is again no "Landed" rule in 5th edition, it's only in the Tau Empire codex and it's redundant.

Obviously I will have to mount my skimmers on a flying base and probably buy a couple the morning of the tournament as I'm missing one I think so I agree to this. Yet that is only because John is enforcing that tournament entry requirement and I'll have to abide by that. However, it has nothing to do with rules mentioned previously whereby a skimmer is somehow automatically immobilized for not having a flying base. It's tournament etiquette and a tournament requirement, not a in-game core rule found in 5th edition or in the Tau Empire codex which is where most of the debate seemed to kick up around.

It's just strange such a massive issue of this "flying base" is even around because ultimately what's the issue is the height of the skimmer. The flying base is completely irrelevant as it's not even as wide as the Skimmer and assaults and shooting to and from a Skimmer come from the Hull. Theoretically, for a non-tournament setting, I could fashion my Landing Gear to be a quarter inch taller and it would have the same effect as a flying base (that's the height difference roughly). Game play wise, there would be zero differences. If the tank is immobilized, just flip the bugger over and wallah it's as tall as it would be without landing gear or a flying base.

[Andrew]

Therefore the only reason I would ever have to use a flying base in a tournament is due to the pre-conditions of the tournament and for etiquette.

Apparently you didn't understand the meaning of "all models supplied with bases must be glued (mounted) on them." You have to have flying bases; there's no way around that.

However, neither of you have actually read what a landed skimmer means. A skimmer cannot start the game immobilized if it has a flying base or not.

I could not as I don't have the rules for that. I posted all the others as I had no clue which you were talking about, so I figured one would get a bite. But you're right about how it's worded and all that jazz.

Here I found one more rule to back up that you need bases all the time (except when landed):

BRB pg 71, bottom: "Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above [immobilized or wrecked], as normally skimmers cannot land in battle conditions." That means that you need to be on a flying base unless you are landed, immobilized, or wrecked. When you are no longer counted as a skimmer, you are no longer floating nor are allowed on a flying stand.

[dragonbait]

Jan 9, 2009 17:22:15 GMT -6 Leudast1215 said:

"Though they utilise advanced anti-gravitic technology, Tau vehicles are fitted with basic landing gear in case they should suffer malfunction. In any turn that the vehicle does not move, it may choose to no longer count as a Skimmer until it moves again. This benefit does not apply on the first turn of the game."

Says right there if you want to land....that you cannot move that turn. Every single game I've ever played against you, you've moved them and said they're landed. Can't do that. That's why we say you need the flying bases, not just for this tournament and this specific time. It's how the rule always is.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

Also Tom, I really wish you would stop saying people havent read things. We have read these things. We are simply saying bring a flipping flying base. End of story.

I am not saying that its not redundant or whatever...I am simply saying for a tournament bring the freaking flying base.

You asked a question from that question other questions popped up ( such as the landing gear/flying base argument) and you were given answers. Ones that you didnt like so you argue them. But the answer is really simple...

Freaking bring the flipping flying bases and model things WYSIWYG. If john wants to run decent tournaments that draw enough people to be worth having he needs to go by common rules that almost every tournament has. If you dont like these rules than a tournament setting is not the type of games you should be playing in. Play friendly games at club and enjoy the lack of these rules due to the laid back nature. Tournaments are competitive therefore the rules will be more strict resulting in harder times for people especially those on fixed incomes. It is something you have to deal with in this hobby.

If you really have a problem with these rules discuss it with John and see if he will get rid of them but hope the tournaments he has dont have sportsmanship scores cause I guarantee you will be docked when in the middle of the game you inform your opponent that your Devilfish has missile pods even though he cant see them.

[dragonbait]

See you's all on the battlefield.

[siriq]

how did the tourny turn out i was unfortantly hindered by money issues and could not attend.

[dragonbait]

First place went to some guy named Tim that played tyranids. It was 3 11-man spinefist gaunts with w/out number, two hive tyrants with barbed strangler, and two carnifex with barbed strangler. He went 3-0-1 (Bloodbath Trophy)

I came in second place with orks at 3-1. (Master Tactician Trophy)
Tom came in third place with tau at 2-0-2. (Death or Glory/Tank Ram Trophy)

I'm not sure of the rest of the order, but here's the rest of the players from my memory offhand
Less: Dark Eldar
Delso: Space Marines
Ben: Space Marines
Karl: Space Wolves
Dubs: Tyranid
Rios: Space Marines
Can't remember the last guy's name: Orks. (Big Game Hunter Trophy)

All in all I had a good time after getting blown out in the first round by the tourney winner. I even managed to squeeze a fun 750 game in against Less's Chaos Demons army in between the rounds, lol. I destroyed a soul grinder after getting like 6 straight "immobilize" results off of glancing hits.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

Congrats to our two members for taking 2nd and 3rd.

Also glad to see Les brought the Dark Eldar, dont see them often so its cool when people bring them.