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Post by modius13 on Mar 14, 2008 4:54:00 GMT -6
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Post by Andrew on Mar 15, 2008 14:02:01 GMT -6
Meh. $280 for an army spearhead box that includes 33 models, 1 codex, and NO LEGAL ARMY WHATSOEVER. At least, that's according to the rumor mill. (Scroll down) warmongerboard.yuku.com/topic/4713/t/New-Demon-Codex.htmlAll demons armies must be led by a Greater Daemon. No less. It's completely non-compatible with the current Chaos Codex. Which I refute and thus say that in our club, they may be used as allies, similar to the DH and WH codecies for Imperials. |
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Post by Leudast1215 on Mar 15, 2008 20:04:15 GMT -6
That army box deal, quite frankly, seems like a real rip off for that # of models and they're not even close to Terminator status. Heck 30 Terminators are 300 bucks and that's virtually the same # of models, but they're Terminators... I was actually interested in the Demon Codex at first, but from what I've heard it seems really bland as far as an army list goes and the new models... what was wrong with the old ones?
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Post by bloodangellh on Mar 15, 2008 21:59:21 GMT -6
The army box basically gives you the codex for free. No more, no less. And I'm fine the Chaos dexes separated. What was lost in unique daemons was gained in great troop choices and inexpensive (relatively) cannon fodder daemons.
And side note, I think you can have a legal army, because it can be lead by a named daemon aka The Masque or Skulltaker.
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Post by modius13 on Mar 16, 2008 0:42:35 GMT -6
I second the suck of not being able to combine the two codexes ala Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters. Also the fact that those 33 models are mostly plastic... massive wtf?!
And I loved all the "well, the list sucks now, but when 5th ed. comes out, blah, blah, blah..." So we should all go out and buy it because it's going to be the star list in the next edition and we want to get on the band wagon as early as possible. And I think I saw something in there about them having invulnerable saves that couldn't be ignored... doesn't that kinda bone the Grey Knights and make the Daemon Hunters less um... hunterly?
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Post by Leudast1215 on Mar 16, 2008 5:26:57 GMT -6
Yeah I've gotten the impression that GW, for some reason, really, really hates Daemon Hunters. To this I ask: Why? They're basically super Space Marines with very cool and fluffy abilities and models. Why are they deliberately nerfing what few advantages Grey Knights themselves actually have with the pseudo-instant death gone and these new demons seemingly immune to many anti-demon abilites that Grey Knights posesses? Doesn't make sense...
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Post by Andrew on Mar 16, 2008 13:37:05 GMT -6
A different take on the daemon codex cover:  Compared to the original suggested:  However, the Soulgrinder is only in 40K, not Fantasy, thus I believe we will get ganked and have that gay-ass one. I prefer the new one, despite the fluff pain. Now, clearly the best solution:  |
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Post by modius13 on Mar 16, 2008 13:46:16 GMT -6
It certainly has a nicer look to it... though there's a bit of a blowfish reference going on... Khorne, Khorne, Khorne, Khorne, Khorne, ooo Slaanesh!
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Post by Leudast1215 on Mar 16, 2008 15:39:48 GMT -6
The slaaneshi demons should not look like they came straight out of Mad Max/Road Warrior. They were a lot more artisticly done and disturbingly hot in the Fantasy chaos codex... Is this a sign from an art and fluff perspective that GW is aiming at making 40K more appealing to tweens and their moms? Even if that's (probably) true, at least they kept em' fluffy with only one breast on the models/art I think. I also agree with Andrew that the supposed Fantasy cover art pwns the 40K cover art with it's giant demon and rhino of doom ^_^.
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Post by Andrew on Mar 16, 2008 17:30:33 GMT -6
The new daemonette models are all very modest. Because yes, GW is catering to America's fast food culture, meaning they want tweens to get their parents to drop $300 on an army, then hope the kids don't forget about the hobby in 2 months because of the next video game.
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Post by modius13 on Mar 16, 2008 18:23:38 GMT -6
You and the Daemonettes, Neo.... Swear I should get you a subscrption to Play Daemon where all the daemons are hawt... or perhaps I should just have a chat with your girlfriend.. get her interested in role playing.... [insert as many entandres as you want here]
And yes. screw the little kids. GW is for adults. Necessary pointy bitz and all...
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Post by Leudast1215 on Mar 16, 2008 20:01:11 GMT -6
What I like boobs... anyways don't bother she doesn't attend NIU, she's part French and doesn't have a thing for toy soldiers boobs or otherwise. I made Daemonettes an example because they, along with many other female characters depicted in Fantasy codexes like Dark Elves *cough* and models are obviously geared towards an older player base and they add a visual distinctive ness to a model over say the carapace like armor Space Marines enjoy and I prefer any game system from a fluff/model perspective to be geared towards a more mature audience, or at least consider them. Thus watching this change is a bit disapointing from that perspective. Though funny on the mention of tweens as Talon would appear to fit that description perfectly...
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Post by Andrew on Apr 23, 2008 19:17:06 GMT -6
Totally rockin' looking new codex. But it's "not compatible" with Codex: Chaos Space Marines. Which to me is entirely stupid, since that's how things have always been. Personally, I'm bored with my "generic daemons," which they totally are ripping on in the White Dwarf. Thus, I'm proposing a change:
I want to take the new daemons as allies in my Word Bearers force, since, y'know, Word Bearers make extensive use of daemons, more so than any other. Basically, GW totally killed my fluff. I think the following solution is acceptable.
This system is the exact same used for Daemonhunters and Witchhunters allying to Imperial armies. John brought up the point that the new daemons are pointed for their army and only that, but then, so are units in the DH and WH books, yet they can ally.
Daemons would be summoned exactly as written in the CSM book. Thus they land and can assault. Basically, nothing has changed from before.
Mainly I would like this because I want my Bloodletters, Flesh Hounds, Flamers, Daemonettes, and Furies to actually be the frickin' daemon they are models of. I hate having everything be so bland. Flavor!
Of course, this would only be for friendly games. For tournaments I would stick with gay GW.
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Post by Pop goes the world on Apr 23, 2008 19:39:43 GMT -6
It is a sad day when GW's staunchest supporters can no longer play their forces due to superfluous rules changes...
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Post by Leudast1215 on Apr 23, 2008 19:53:57 GMT -6
I'm allright with that it's just a game after all, but for "fairness" sake i'd propose just adding a few points to each model's cost when allying with em' cause a lot of the demon models it seems, like Daemonettes, are really cheap point wise and that combined with a very elite army like Chaos Space Marines could be a little much. While on the subject of allies, for friendly games, can we just say that in our club any army can ally with any army using the above list? It's a downer as a painter/modeler to only be able to field one type of army at a time so maybe that way I could just field that sweet Hive Tyrant and Carnifex? They're point sinks as it is ;D
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Post by Andrew on Apr 23, 2008 21:30:50 GMT -6
In what, Tau? heck no. That doesn't even make sense. At least Chaos and Daemons are actually supposed to go together =P.
Think of it this way. Say they took out lictors, gargoyles, genestealers, and broodlords from the Tyranids codex, added new units and characters, and made it a whole new army (Codex: Vanguard Tyranids), totally incompatible with the actual Tyranids codex.
Or them deciding to remove all of the secondary races (kroot, vespid, anything else) from the Tau codex because "they weren't given enough attention," adding even more units and races to the mix, and calling it the Codex: Tau Allies.
That's what happened, and that's how pissed I am.
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Post by Pop goes the world on Apr 24, 2008 6:37:08 GMT -6
GW has abandoned it's old fluff pretty heartily... I mean, the new boxed set with Slaanesh and Khorne together? By the fluff, they hate each other more than anything.
Plus, Andrew, you have a point about the separation of Demons and Chaos. By the fluff, Demons would have to be summoned by somebody; they don't just pop up on their own. Even around warp storms, somebody (chaos cultists, marines, whomever) would have to preform the proper rites in order to make them manifest. Even then, a Demon outside of the warp is like a fish out of water- it can only survive for so long.
This is just another fine example of GW getting senile in it's old age.
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Post by Leudast1215 on Apr 25, 2008 11:31:59 GMT -6
If you feel that strongly then why not just continue use the older Chaos Codex and build an army from that (except for Iron Warriors). At least that way the Demons will be relatively balanced compared with the rest of the Chaos list. I've noticed GW having a tendency to REALLY beef up any new codex they release to encourage more sales lately (Chaos and Orks as an example, both being some of the best codices in the game now in terms of competitiveness... though Chaos Space Marines got seriously shafted with regards to army customization sadly) and the new Demons seem to reflect this as well. I dunno, to me it's basically taking the most competitive Meq army Chaos Space Marines in their current incarnation and combining it with the horde elements of another army designed to be better than they were before using a fluff justification. Ultimately It's not like I wouldn't play against said combination or anything, but if one person is going to do that then everyone should be able to as well outside of tournaments. I personally would never advocate using fluff as a justification for affecting gameplay because it works both ways remember; A Hive Tyrant has simply been genetically re-engineered to accept the pheremones from an Ethereal to do its' bidding. Though now that I bring it up under such fluff justifications fielding an Ethereal that has to remain within 12" of the Hive Tyrant or something seems reasonable otherwise it would attack the nearest unit, ally or foe or something.
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Post by Andrew on Apr 25, 2008 15:02:24 GMT -6
Because.
That book is no longer valid in any way. I cannot use it; there's much more wrong than just Iron Warriors. However, I can use the two new books because they are legal.
Meq...it is a Marine army, not Meq. That's Necrons. And besides, you are describing exactly the current Chaos Space Marines codex. The generic daemons have a better statline than the marines themselves, minus the armor save, plus being fearless. That is a far cry better than the previous daemons, in addition to them costing less (13 each), allowing for the horde aspect.
The new non-generic daemons are either more expensive than previously, or cheaper and with less abilities. Take Flamers of Tzeentch, for example. They used to be 23 pts each, now they are 35 pts each, and they only can flame well. They have the statline of a guardsman, just with an inv save. Same with most of the other daemons. And the rest of the new daemons are expensive as well, more so than CSM. They are not hordey in any way.
Negative; impossible. According to fluff, the only living Tyranid specimen ever captured was a Lictor, by the Deathwatch. They used it to engineer a virus that would hyper-evolve them being their capacity, and basically turn them into piles of goo.
See, my justification is the game itself; that's how things used to be, all the way through now. It only changed because GW wanted to make more money by making a new army. You are making up your own fluff outside of the game, simply to be able to use a combat monstrosity in an army that doesn't have close combat ability. Basically, using own fluff to make your army much better (or more rounded at least). Sure, I want a Tyrant being a bodyguard for my character too, but, y'know, it makes absolutely no sense...
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Post by kernbanks on May 4, 2008 0:14:47 GMT -6
Andrew... new to this board... but since i came across it i started reading. you should get a copy of "Xenology"... in the last recordings from Inquistor Brehm SasHam he oversaw the disection an adult Genestealer, Lictor, Warrior, and Reaver... not going to spoil the story of Biegal's bestiary, but it is worth the $20.
As for the way GW is headed... there is nothing in the official rules stopping CSM and Deamons from being on the same table at the same time. just use the Apocalypse rules and field them as two seperate armies. while that rule set works best with high points games, they still work at 15-2000 per side. there is much more flexibility built into Apoclypse and in my opinion you'll have a more rounded battle... the CSM summon the deamon army and the deamon army rolls to battle with the CSMs.
I do agree though... deamonic anomisity was one of the things i loved in the older rules. it made mixed bags of chaos followers even more chaoitic to play.
and if i'm reading GW right - and i've been playing since the 80s, so i'm getting good and predicting thier moves... after 5th edition comes out the inquisition will be lumped into one codex in conjunction with the release of Ordo Xeno. my number one indicator there is the online store - which has already lumped Deamon hunters and Witch hunters together on one sales page. the writing is on the wall for my Grey Knights to be hitting eBay sometime in the next year.
Kernbanks
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