Kill & Grill Summer Event

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I agree with Depayen on this one.

I like the idea of no specials and also agree that the FOC should be left alone.

[dragonbait]

Hell, I'll make a leap on the the behalf of the E-board. Organize your ideas as players and tell us what you'd like to see as far as a general rules/scenario idea. I'm fully expecting this tournament to be the most laid back atmosphere as possible, with just a day of food and gaming. What do you guys want? Keep the ideas coming, and we'll see what looks good.

-The Frizz

[Andrew]

I'd like Forgeworld models or bits to be allowed, like stuff that isn't super-heavy or gargantuan, just the other odd-ball cool stuff out there. I'd always like that allowed in our tournaments as it is...

[equinox]

Apr 25, 2009 10:14:33 GMT -6 Depayen said:

Guys, I have a suggestion lets up the points to 1700pts a round. Leave the organizational chart alone in the sense troop are troop elites are elites and so forth. Here is where go back to a little of the old School which should make some people think out side the box a little. No special characters. Example Daemons can not use Fateweaver or epidemus, Eldar can't use Eldrad, Orcs can't use Grazull ( i know it misspelled), Space Marine Vulkan and so on. This is when you had to learn your armies for what they were not what combination works the best plus armies now get a little more verity.

Or another possibility is a escalation battle 1st round 1000pts 2nd round 1350pts and the 3rd round 1700pts. all army list must be submitted to the judge for review and a copy to keep with each bump up listed A and the other B. You as the player get to decide which round you bring in A or B. Now you can say with or without special characters as additional favor to the tounament.

I know this is the most people have seen me write on here but guys there is other ways to bring flavor to a tournament then always messing with the organizational chart. Well these are my suggestions.

My thoughts on this post.
1. I agree with the idea that messing with the org chart is not always a good idea. Its fun to do once in awhile, but I wouldn't do it for every tournament.
2. People need to understand that the old world concept of special characters is gone. Named characters are valid choices like any other unit. Don't start banning them.

I do agree with the "no special characters" bit. So many people only use them, and some armies simply don't have them. Variety is the spice of life...I'd be super happy to see no armies with special characters. Perhaps allow them, but then give massive docks if you have one or something.

The problem with this thought Andrew is that all of the newer books are using named characters to alter the org of the book. Without named characters, deathwing/ravenwing are out.

3. 1500 is a nice niche you guys should stick with for your tournaments. 1700, 1750, 1850 should be left to other tournaments. 1500 forces players to make choices.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I can see equinoxs point with the special characters also. I am more of a fantasy player and characters in fantasy are often to over the top (not as much any more but still bad...Settra the Imperishable is a good example) hence the reason why I agreed with Depayen. I would have to get a few more games in with the new edition of 40K to really make a better decision on that one for me.

Dont mess with the FOC though...that one I can still get behind.

1500 is a good point size...with this seeming like it is supposed to be a more laid back tournament I wouldnt go any larger than that...maybe even a little smaller.

[Andrew]

Without named characters, deathwing/ravenwing are out.

Well, I guess tough luck, or a compromise is reached. Currently, many OTT lists are made with special characters; Shrike, Vulkan, and some IG ones (new book) come to mind. But really, who wouldn't want to see a game with no named characters? Sure, I love named characters, and I use them all the time. I've had people say to me that they're sooo happy that I'm not playing the same cookie Vulkan list as every other marine player is right now though. That tells me some people want to see variety, instead of everyone going for the default choice (and there shouldn't be in a codex anyway, but egh...).

As for deathwing/ravenwing, what could be done is thatsince they are highly specialized armies (and prone to losing in 5th edition, heh), perhaps the character can be allowed. People can still easily make ravenwing/bike armies from the SM codex with a stock captain though. Yes it would be subjective, but if one could give a good enough reason that they want to play a certain army, it could pass. Super fluffy things is what I'd look for, no BS like Creed chillin' with Al'rahem and Sly Marbo. Or Lysander hanging out with Telion. Or Eldrad bringing Jain Zar along for the ride. Those are non-fluffy combinations but they are strong because the characters benefit each other.

Yes, this is also the age of "counts as," which I'm all for. Sometimes you just twist your mind like what? when you see certain combinations. I dunno.

Also, maybe we ask people to submit army lists ahead of time (first come first served). A player can be the only person to use a certain named character, like only 1 marine player in the tournament can use Lysander. If anyone else wants to use it they'll have to change it up. That will encourage people to actually think about their choices; if they want time to think about their army list, it's more likely someone will "steal" a named character away. So, they then think of using other units to counter it, or simply be original, or whatever.

[Depayen]

I am glad to see my comment has had some good feed back. Yes I also use characters I was just thinking of a tournament where you didn't be cause it would throw a little variety into it. 1500 pts. is fine I just suggest 1700 for a escalation battle scenario.

[dragonbait]

As for my personal preferences toward the things mentioned, I'd be for getting rid of special characters, wouldn't really be for an escalation scenario, and wouldn't change the FOC chart (which I don't like doing usually anyways).

[Leudast1215]

How do you feel about special characters that actually gimp and make an army less competitive? I'm in the mood to run a Farsight Tau list for the fun of it and it performed surprisingly well on my first play through. Farsight make Phoenix Lord go squishy.

I can understand Space Marine special characters as being a bit over the top sometimes, but otherwise a lot of army special characters actually hurt the army because they're from older codices.

I just find it odd that someone is claiming that people need to learn how to play their armies for what they were meant as... I've played Tau as nothing but generic Tau ever since I had them until this past Thursday, so I hardly need experience going to back to my army's "roots" so to speak ^_^. It gets a bit boring.

Or maybe I'm just biased because I've never played an army with special characters (Tyranids) or an army that doesn't have a special character worth taking in a competitive sense (Tau) lol.

I also prefer 1500 points and don't mess with the FOC otherwise I will demand Crisis Suits become scoring units in a Farsight list.

I also feel that Forge World vehicles n' such should be allowed.

I guess I just don't really understand the dislike for special characters? By all means, dump all your points into a single model I'll just ignore and blow up the rest of your army in the meanwhile. The one exception to this might just be Gazghull because he makes a true foot-slogging Ork list truly broken (from a Tau player's perspective, at least).

[equinox]

I like the idea that its a first come/first serve basis on special characters instead of just a flat ban on them. To make it simple, a player may declare one special character when they register (include pay). If it is available, they get it. If not, they can select another.

Pre-submitting army lists I feel may hurt the casual vibe of the event, but that is just my opinion.

I like the use of Forgeworld, just be careful to word it so the super-greater daemons cannot show up.

Depayen - Wasn't knocking your suggestions, I just feel like all of the tournaments are 1750 or 1850 now, so a tournament running 1500 games is unique.

Any thoughts on sportsmanship and/or appearance scoring?

Or Eldrad bringing Jain Zar along for the ride. Those are non-fluffy combinations but they are strong because the characters benefit each other.

Just to tease you Andrew, didn't Eldrad teamup with another Phoenix lord in the EoT campaign? Hehehehe The fluffy can always be found!

[Andrew]

Well yes he did. Eldad did team with Maugan Ra, but never in fluff has it been Jain Zar. Not saying it isn't possible, but it's unwritten is all. By the way, were you able to use the directions I gave you or did you just use a different way?

I like your idea of declaring a character better than mine. I guess when I said list, that's actually what I meant.

Forgeworld is fun and fantastic and I'd like it back in our tournaments. It's easy to just say no to any super-heavy, gargantuan, or other thing with more than 4 wounds.

I'd like sports and paint scores back in, but that's up to prize support, really. Since we like to do 1st, 2nd, and 3rd instead of just 1st like most tournaments, it soaks up some of that. But I like it much better, to be honest.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I personally also like Sports and Painting...it is just hard to do (prize support, impartial judging in both categories).

I say for this event since it is supposed to be laid back lets just make it simple.

- Regular FOC's (which means special characters are allowed, if it is legal in the book than it is legal at the Kill & Grill.)

- Allow forge world but no Super heavies or gargantuan creatures

- 1500 pts to keep the games slightly smaller but with enough killin' to work up a hunger for the grillin'.

I am gonna seriously attempt to be at this one even if I dont play just to come visit everyone since I havent been up in awhile. Really depends on when this goes on especially since I have been getting shit at work for requesting days off four or five months in advance ( you would think that would be enough time its not where I work ).

[siriq]

IDK i kind of like the idea of no special characters. Most people i have played against recently have all used special characters. While this has been at the gw store, i still caused the use of the same list over and over again.

Ill be the first to admit i play with the same list over and over again but that is because im restricted with the amount of models i use. but ill would admit that seeing what people come up with w/o special characters would be cool.

restricting special characters to just one per tournment is not fair, it may inadvertently give the advantage to a certain player. cool concept though, and i dont see it as being a problem with our bunch, unless theres like a overwhelming number of one race that shows up. so ill be neutral at this point.

other than that i agree 1500 points is a good number. its divisible by 5 and 3 those are both prime numbers.

i dont care about the rest.

[ddaypunk06]

I understand I am biased because I play a SC. However I do agree with equinox. They are legal models, and even as such, if someone wants to use them as a character archetype they can. They aren't necessarily the people they are listed as. Although if it goes the way the group wants, I will just take a normal HQ then from SM.

If this is supposed to be laid back and fun, I propose not throwing a shit ton of restrictions on the lists. 1500 or 1700 sounds fine. Escalation sounds like something different.

I also would say if there are no SC, then there should be no IA or Titans or anything outside the codecies then. If you want to do barebones armies, then just use your codex.

I still like the CoD idea too, that kinda stuff is fun. If we can get started early enough we should do a fun like bonus round or something at the end. Like throw in some kill squads, or a free for all 750pts...would be fun I think.

[Andrew]

Or one big Apocalypse game, where each person has certain mission objectives to fulfill, and those that get the most are winners. Call halftime, grill some lunch. With a bunch of wiser people, we won't have tons upon tons of yelling to be heard, which is nice.

[siriq]

lets just stick with the CoD tourney 1500 points.

[RARE CHOICE GAMES]

I agree with Caleb. CoD tournament 1500pts sounds like the way to go.

[equinox]

ROCK... I'll start looking at 1500 points for a list. I would like to paint something up especially for this tournament.

Any thoughts on the date?

[dragonbait]

I'll get the rest of the Exec board and myself working on this next week to get a concrete date set. I don't want to work on ideas for this really until I'm done with senior presentations this week and finals next week.

[Andrew]

True, true. We were kinda going nuts with ideas (which is good for future tournaments!). I think a very simple 1500 CoD with funtastic missions would suffice for the summer. If we start rollin' dice at 11 (or earlier), the first game would be done in time for actual lunch time (1:30ish, egh). Then the afternoon can have a pair of easy-going games.