Modernized Khador Army

[Pop goes the world]

Calling all Khador tacticians!

I want to start a themed Khador army, based off of the "new model Khadoran army." I want to put together a modernized Khadoran military force which uses the newer technologies (long rifles, assault kommandos), and gets away from the old traditional forces (Kossites, gray lords, manhunters, etc). So far, I know that I want to include the Assault Kommandos and Winter Guard Long Rifles (though I am unsure on the latter's rules and point cost). I am thinking of putting together a 50 point list that can be broken down into a 35 point if necessary.

So, I wanted to pick your brains and see what you recommend, either from fluff or rules. A few things I want to exclude because of their "outdated" status (based on fluff, not rules functionality)
-No Berserkers. They are supposed to be the oldest Khadoran 'Jack chassis
-No gray lords, manhunters, kossites, Doomreavers, or Iron Fangs
-No vlad, old witch, or Zerkova

-YES Assault Kommandos, Winter Guard

Does anybody know which 'jacks are supposed to be the newest?

What am i missing as far as modernized troops? What is good, what is bad? I haven't played MKII Khador, so I need your expertise.

[Pop goes the world]

I am thinking Epic Irusk as a caster- seems bad ass, both in fluff and practice. The new caster looks promising too.

Man- the new Assault commando UA seems bad ass. It effectively gives them up to three fire bile thrall-esque members... and they are immune to his purge, as they are immune to fire. Nice.

[shintaibane]

you might want to wait and see what the new warcaster for khador does. Strakhov seems to be an commando warcaster.

As for modern Jacks I think the behemoth fits that bill and the Kodiak seems to be a modern build on the standard Juggernaut frame.

The new man of war bombardiers might have a place in the new army too. but I don't know much about them beyond name.

[shintaibane]

I was looking at some solos and if you are WG Heavy, especially the new gunners and maybe the motars then you may want Kovnik Jozef Grigovich, his patriotic speech, for the motherland gives all WG and extra attack for the round/turn. Motars shooting twice and the new gunners shooting twice may be devestating.

He is a bit old school but for the newly equipped WG he can be fierce.

[Pop goes the world]

I don't know- the more I think about it, the more I think i might want to just create a bad-ass eIrusk assault army. I am thinking about the following for a 35 point list...

Supreme Kommandant Irusk- +5 wj
Devastator- 9
War dog- 1
Doom Reavers (Leader and 5 Grunts)- 6
Man-o-war Bombardiers (Leader and 4 Grunts)- 11
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts)- 9
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts)- 4
=35

This is a really basic list, but the basic tactic is to use Irusk's Martial Discipline and Total obedience to their full ability (friendly faction troops can move, shoot, and see through one another, and gain Tough). Shocktroopers provide a tough-ass shield wall for rest of army to advance behind. Doom reavers hang out behind Shocktroopers until they are close enough to charge something, and then they do so with Battle Lust cast on them, meaning POW 13+5 D6 damage on charge, plus Berserker (or not, when their UA comes out). Bombadiers hang out behind them, and with Fire For Effect upkept on them, provide boosted Devastator cannon shots. Widowmakers hang out behind them, unseen but shooting through my whole army because of Martial Discipline. The Devestator is just a monster, plus he gets a bond to Irusk.

Alternately, I am thinking about using Beast09 instead of the devestator, dropping the Bombadiers for a Mortar with the upkeep for boost and then throwing in stuff like the new widowmaker solo.

But of course, this is all theorymachine. Stop me if I am wrong.

[tedwin183]

The list looks pretty good, but you'll come across a couple problems...

Fire for Effect only targets a MODEL, not a UNIT. So each Bombardier wouldn't get it. Sucks, I know. It's simply because, for 3FOC, Fire for Effect would be the best spell in the game if it did that for a unit. I like it for Mortar abuse. Trick is as follows: Turn 1, cast FFE on a mortar, leave the other mortar on it's own. Next turn, upkeep FFE on the mortar1, activate Mortar1, fire Mortar1. Next, activate eIrusk, cast FFE on Mortar2, effectively ending FFE on Mortar1, and then fire Mortar2. It's 4 focus a turn but it guarantees a lot more dead-on mortar shots. In the early game, when you're not using a lot of focus, anyways, it's a great little tactic. I am actually liking pIrusk a little better though. He has Iron Flesh, which is SUPER good, especially if you're using MoWs. ARM21 DEF14 is pretty delicious.

I am liking Doom Reavers more and more. Especially with eIrusk, they can be brutal. The absolute best trick is to brick up, move forward, cast Artifice of Deviation on your opponent's frontline and then charge your Doom Reavers through your own guys, through his line and then into his backfield.

If you're going strictly for a "modern" Khador army, I'd do this:

eIrusk
Decimator
max. MoW Bombardiers
max. MoW Shocktroopers
max. Assault Kommandos +3 WA
35pts.

Either way, I'd stick with Irusk. He's supposed to be the "cutting edge" caster for Khador, wanting to modernize the army. It's why he's so friendly to shooting stuff. Decimator is as modern as it gets and is really a pretty decent 'jack. Bombardiers are just plain nasty, Shocktroops are probably my favorite unit in the game and are also a modern thing, though their founding was prior to 500AR. Lastly, Assault Kommandos +WA have a lot of utility. Between their Shields and the blades on their carbines, they can pump out A LOT of hits in melee. Combine that with Battle Lust and you have a really hard hitter. Same with the Shocktroopers. They hit like a load of bricks in melee, get CMA's and, with Battle Lust, can smash things at 14+4D6 on the charge. That'll do some hurt to heavy 'jacks, let alone infantry.

If you're trying to stick to Winterguard, go with pIrusk. If you're going more melee, trickery, go with eIrusk. eIrusk can still be great with shooting, but, with Iron Flesh, pIrusk loves himself some Winterguard.

[tedwin183]

Additionally, Doom Reavers can't have Battle Lust put on them...they are immune to ALL spells, not just enemy ones...

[tedwin183]

If you'd like to make a list that most people will hate you for, you could run this:

eIrusk
Destroyer

max. MoW Shocktroopers
max. Winterguard +UA +2WA +Kovnik Joe

Gorman
Harlan Versh.

Destroyer gets eIrusk's bond, which will get him out and into shooting range quickly. The MoW ST line up and block LOS to the WG, who creep in behind them. Mortars get stuck into a good firing position. MoW ST move up, get to about 9" out, maybe a little closer, pop eIrusk's feat so nothing can charge you next turn. This allows you the ability to set up a HUGE charge, after you move through your MoW with your WG and CRA the hell out of a couple things. Cast Battle Lust on the MoW and let them slam into things. Harlan Versh, I am finding, is the most annoying guy for upkeeps, or casting anything. I did HORRIBLE amounts of damage to an Ironclad with an upkeep on it with Harlan. Additionally, I got him close to a bunch of Greylords, who were firing their magic sprays. Everytime they did, Harlan got a free shot, out of turn, at them. Killed a Koldun, 3 Greylords with him without it even being my turn. For 2pts, he's sooooooo worth taking. Gorman wouldn't get to run through the Khador troops, nor see through them, but he's good in any list. If you want, you could drop 1 Rocketeer and Gorman to make room for Eiryss. I find that, when Eiryss and Harlan are on the board, it keeps your opponent's honest about things.

[Pop goes the world]

Jan 23, 2010 15:56:11 GMT -6 tedwin183 said:

Additionally, Doom Reavers can't have Battle Lust put on them...they are immune to ALL spells, not just enemy ones...

Damn. I should have recognized that. Oh well- don't really fit with modern theme anyway.

I think I am liking the MoW and Bombadier army. I might try to look for some ways to tweak that to fit some Mortars and/or solos. I love the fluff and look of the Assault Kommandos, but I am not completely sold on them yet.

Also- why the Decimator? What is your advice on that?

[tedwin183]

Another nice little list you could do would be:
eIrusk
Decimator

max. MoW Bombardiers
max. MoW Shocktroopers
WG mortar
WG mortar
Great Bears

That's 2 nasty AOE's that can hit almost anything they want with that FFE loophole, Decimator will be good for board control 1. because his weapon is powerful and 2. it has beatback, preventing charge setups. Bombardiers will be really nice, but MoW have bad RAT, so you'll likely get a lot of scattering. Against a list like Steve's, that means wasted points because he'll keep force field up all game. They're still supposed to be good in melee though. Shocktroopers are beasts in every way. Hiding the Great Bears behind all of that means guaranteed alpha strike with them...and they hit HARD on the charge.

The Decimator is the newest jack Khador has in its arsenal, fluff-wise as well as real-world. It's got the typical, awesome Juggernaut hull, a great melee weapon and a very interesting, flexible ranged weapon. I hear the best success with it comes when you use it as your keystone. Put it out front, dead center and plug away at things. In an eIrusk list, where you're basically going to dictate that you get the charge first, always, it's a great utility to help that.

[Pop goes the world]

I don't know about the Decimator... He is only RAT 4, and he seems like he will need a ton of focus to pull of any reliable kind of shooting on the average turn (and it does not seem like Irusk would have the focus to put into him considering all of the casting he would need to do). Plus, beating enemies directly back 2" seems unlikely to make a huge difference in the long run, especially for the focus investment it would take to try to actually hit something. As for a 'jack, I am thinking along the lines of Beast09 or the Devastator, as they both have pretty wide-ranging functionality against both hard and soft targets.

I'm kinda thinking the same thing with the MoW Bombardiers. Low rat, high scatter probablility. I would already have that taken care of with the mortars.

I am, however, liking the idea of the great bears behind Shocktroopers. The more I think about it, the less I am married to the modernized concept. I don't love the old winter guard models, so I am not eager to purchase and paint them. I am hoping the new plastics (which I like) will have the option to arm them as either long rifles or traditional winter guard, but I kind of doubt it. I think I just want to build a sweet-ass eIrusk list.

[tedwin183]

The Rifle Corp are actually all metal models...so there unfortunately won't be any universal builds with them. I was in your boat a few months ago, regarding the regular WG models. After spending the past 3 weeks painting them, on and off, I've come to appreciate the sculpts. Some of them are actually really good. I am unsure the points cost on the Riflemen or what they do, but let's just keep the WG in the picture until then, at least for spot-holding purposes. An eIrusk list really depends on melee infantry. Great Bears, MoW ST, Doom Reavers and IFP are really all we have in that department. Great Bears should be auto-include in most lists. I know you said you you didn't want to use them, but IFP are really your best bet with eIrusk. His whole spell suite and feat are tailored for the IFP.

eIrusk
Devastator

Great Bears
max. IFP +UA
max. WG +UA +Kovnik Joe
WG Mortar
WG Mortar

The WG squad is there only as a place holder Riflemen would take their place if the points match up. IFP would do shield wall, Bears would hide behind them. Devastator would flank 1 side or the other. I really think maybe a Kodiak fits the bill better, here. Runs for free, so that focus can be spent elsewhere. His chain attack is FANTASTIC and he's only 8pts. If you still want to keep the MoW stuff in there, then the WG or IFP would have to be dropped. What are you looking for your jacks to do in this list? usually 1 is good. It'll get the bond. Anything else is a waste compared to stuff you can use with eIrusk.

[Pop goes the world]

Meh to the winterguard. They are from the first generation of infantry sculpts (all of which kinda suck IMHO), so their faces are smushed and their poses are kinda unnatural and two dimensional. The newer models (UA, WA) are nice, but the core is kinda bad. Also, shitty that the rifles are metal. I was hoping for plastics for a variety of reasons. Since they showed them in a block of 10, I assumed they would come all together as plastics. So, lets assume that they are in the points range of regular WG plus their UA- How does this look-

Supreme Kommandant Irusk 6
Kodiak 8
War dog 1
Great Bears of Gallowswood 5
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts) 9
Winter Guard Infantry (Leader and 9 Grunts) 6
1 Winter Guard Infantry Rocketeer 1
Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard 2
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) 3
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt) 3
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich 2

As far as a 'jack goes, I am looking for something versatile that could take out either 'jacks or infantry. I've always loves the Kodiak, but he is still mostly an anti-hard target tool. Yeah, he has steam vent and trample, but otherwise he isn't taking out too many infantry. I guess my mortars should take care of most infantry, so maybe I need not worry about it.

My big worries are taken care of- Solo control with Air Burst, Infantry block annihilation with mortars. I am just worried about protecting against the same thing- winter guard are squishy, and the Shock troopers aren't going to protect them much (as they will mostly be a Great Bears delivery tool). I'm not really sure what role the WG would play, specifically.

Also, I am not doing IFP. I have no interest in them at all.

[tedwin183]

I think that list looks really solid. It's very, very similar to the eSorscha list I run sometimes. There's been nothing said yet, but I really hope Rocketeers and the UA can be added to the Rifle corp. With Kovnik Joe, you have a super melee buff +Battle Lust +eIrusks feat turn. That equates to absolutely nothing being able to hide from you, within a 9" radius of your WG brick. They do still have their nice little axes still and with the UA, will be able to do CRAs. It's a hard things to wrap your head around, but think of WG as the Idrian Skirmishers of Khador. They do anything you want them to do and, with the right support, can do it well. They can be melee monsters with Battle Lust and Joe's speech, they can be shooting nightmares with CRAs. They can take a lot of hits with Total Obedience, they can camp a point and be impossible to hit with Bob and Weave.

The Kodiak is great for the simple reason that, most times, you'll get to two-handed throw something after you make 2 hits on a target. Nothing is more fun than picking a heavy up, and throwing it into a group of infantry, squishing them.

I share the same opinion about IFP, but I realize I'll eventually need them. eIrusk just goes so, so, so well with them. POW 13 +4D6 on the charge...huge. And their mini feat gives them an 18" move turn.

[Pop goes the world]

I doubt the UA will work with the rifle corps, just because the LT has a Blunderbuss. Wouldn't fit, and rules specify they will attach to Winterguard Infantry units. The attachment wording is the same for the WA, so I assume it will be the same.

[tedwin183]

They still should be good. Also, don't discount the new Widowmaker Marksman. Kovnik joe would still be good with them as well. Have you considered pIrusk?

[Pop goes the world]

I looked at him briefly. Maybe as a second caster or something. Have you seen the rules for the new marksman?

[tedwin183]

I haven't seen the new rules for him, no. Have you? If you have, please divulge as much info as you have on him. The way they write about him, it sounds like he has AP and a longer range than regular Widowmakers. Ife he gives some bonus like Treewalker or CRA to the Widowmakers, I will be completely and utterly in love with him.

Also, have you possibly considered Old Witch? She's supposedly turning into our best tournament caster. I have been reading Old Witch list after list winning Resurgence tournaments. Apparently she is a beast with kossites, IFP, WG and a couple of the other obscure units in the faction.

[Pop goes the world]

I've seen the model for the Marksman, but no rules. They seem to be stressing the armor penetration and range of his weapon in his description, but also the weight of the weapon (making me think he will not be the most mobile/agile solo... but he probably won't need to be).
Old Witch... meh. Her rules are good, but I am not in love with her model or fluff. An unlikely warcaster, especially for an infantry heavy army (at least fluff-wise). Maybe someday.

[tedwin183]

The rules for the Marksmen got leaked on the forums yesterday. Same stats as a Widowmaker +1RAT, Stealth, 14" POW 12 Rifle, has an ability called Swift Hunter that, after he kills something, he can move 2". He also grants a Widowmaker squad Swift Hunter if they are in his Command Range. He's 2pts.

Riflemen got leaked as well. They are sick. 5pts for 6, 8pts for 10. Same stats as a Winterguardsmen. Rifles are 14" POW10. They have ranked infantry, so anything behind them can see through them and they can see through themselves. They have Suppressing Fire (Order) ala the Long Gunner UA...built into them. They have no CRA, which hurts. However, 8pts for 10 guys with that cache of abilities...they are certainly a promising unit. If you take Kovnik Joe with them, for a total of 10pts, you have a unit, at 14" and POW 10 able to make shots at RAT5+3D6 due to Joe's speech that boosts attack rolls for the unit. That means hitting DEF16 models ON AVERAGE, without aiming, and DEF18 ON-FREAKING-AVERAGE with aiming!

Get a Spriggan into a list with them and nothing can hide from them. They'll be absolutely disgusting with eIrusk and Old Witch.